First, we are not torturing. Second, who are you to question the techniques utilized by the CIA? They are on the ground, have experience with dealing with terrorists and other Muslim extremists, and are very close to the situation. If they deem it to be a worthwhile use of time, then I will not second guess them from my vantage point at home. When Porter Goss, McCain, etc say that torture doesn't yield reliable information, they are referring to much more drastic measures, such as inflicting irreparable bodily damage and the like. They aren't talking about panties on the head or handling the Koran with only one hand.
How do you know that the info isn't reliable? Unless you are involved in secret discussions that homeland security has (i will use the argument that mad max and rm 95 used against me when i said that we had no plan b ..it worked for them). But to answer your question, if ONE lead results in one innocent American life saved, then yes, it was worth every bit of eminems music being blasted. Can you suggest something that might work since you dont believe torture is the answer?
Absurd? The criminal justice system still provides people Constitutional protections. Are you willing to afford those to these people? My guess is no. When someone gets rounded up for committing a crime here in the States, they can't be held for more than X hours (can't remember exactly how many) and they don't have to say a word...and they are afforded legal counsel. Turning people over and pouring water on them to make them feel they're drowning doesn't fly in this country...in our criminal justice system. So it's not the same thing, TJ.
Max, instead of continuing to take the conversation backwards, would you like to propose a solution to accidently rounding up a few innocents in the quest to eradicate terrorists from the Middle East? How can we effectively fight terrorism if we don't have the ability to act freely for fear of making 1 mistake out of 100? That's not how you fight a war Max. That's called pu**yfooting around while your enemy is fighting dirty.
fair enough. i'm just not comfortable with torture. i think it's the wrong thing to do. if that means i'm pu**yfooting around, then that's what it means. i wouldn't vote for me for president, either.
this thread should be labeled exihibit A: How the Right thinks our immoral behavior is just a perception problem
Why should these techniques be restricted to interrogating suspected terrorists, or people who might know something about terrorist operations, in other countries. Possible terrorist acts in the U.S. pose a much greater threat to the ordinary American. Using my scientific profile of potential terrorist and terrorist sympathizers to analyze their postings on this BBS, I conclude that we round up tj and njrocket. There is a good (enough) possibility that they are (or know) right wing terrorists, similar to those who have already killed hundreds of U.S. citizens. Let the waterboarding begin!
I know the information isn't reliable because expert after expert has said that the information isn't reliable. A concrete example of information obtained under torture that was absolutely unreliable and wrong was when the tortured man claimed Saddam was training Al Qaeda members in use of chem and bio weapons. Torture clearly doesn't work. First of all there isn't any evidence to show that torture does save one American life, but even if it did, what if it endangered hundreds or thousands of other American lives by inspiring hatred, violence, and ill treatment of Americans as a result? I believe we shouldn't be so shortsighted.
It's our right and reponsibility as patriotic Americans to question the actions of government. When you're in a war it's important to understand the repercussions of policy. The effects of pictures like the one below. How many Muslims and Arabs have been emboldened to become terrorist sympathizers by this? How dare we question torture techniques indeed.
HWHWHWHHWWHW HAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAAHAH Then force them to play the Staring Game with Jeff Van Gundy after the game. OOOOHHHH THE TORTURE
And expert after expert in the CIA has determined that torture is working...and thats why its going on. Just because YOU dont think it works, doesnt mean you are right
It is not just him, it is people like John McCain and actual EXPERTS on torture who have asserted over and over again that information received by means of torture is not reliable. Even the CIA says so, do some research.
max sir your a good man. i wish we had more christians like you in this country. thats the point. that first there isn't a proper screening process to see who is in these secret jails and gitmo. secondly that process must be as transparent as possible. thirdly torture does not work. i think the notion that some courts have upheld that the constitution doesn't apply outside of the US/against non citizens is absolutely insane. the fact is that the constitution limits the gov'ts power. and any power not written in the constitution is unconstitutional and not given to the US. the US can't apply one set of rules here and another abroad. and i think thats the bigger question that the courts are dead wrong about.
EXPERTS on torture? So does this mean at one time they tortured people and got no results? There are experts for and against any cause you can possibly think of. You guys just choose to believe the ones you want to believe. I choose to believe that what our gov't has decided to do is the best possible way to do whatever it is they are doing. Its called standing behind your country and not playing armchair president and coming up with ways you (or John Kerry) could do it better.
NJRocket -- Ignore andymoon. He still doesn't grasp that this boils down to the definition of torture and that his comments are simply untrue when the proper definition is applied. He's a few pages behind us in the discussion.
I'm willing to concede that torture may work. Why else would they do it? For kicks? I'll also say it's wrong. Shamefully wrong. Not the sort of thing the 'good guys' do.
So, after lambasting Clinton for "what the definition of is is," you are reduced to claiming that we don't torture people as long as you agree with a very limited view of what the definition of "torture" is. I call dousing someone with cold water and forcing them to stand outside during a cold night in Afghanistan until they die of hypothermia torture. That happened, it is detailed in the article, and you are defending it. You have become Clinton without the charisma.
The government has decided that torture is OK, but only because the White House has gotten behind the practice. I have a hard time believing that Cheney or Bush are as knowledgeable about torture as John McCain. You are welcome to close your eyes to that fact if you like, but you are the one closing your eyes to the facts and blinding yourself to the evidence.
No, I've been reading the whole thread as it progressed, and was taking great pleasure in the way you and NJ have served themselves up on a silver platter to be owned by people who had time to type up their thoughts. Define "torture" for us and continue digging your hole, Mr. Clinton.
