As someone who has been to Hong Kong many times I've been keeping a close eye on what is happening. It is very painful to see what is happening to a great city and a unique place. We need a solution before this city tears itself apart and either descends into sectarian chaos or become a police state. I still firmly believe the solution lies in implementation in full of the original treaty and Basic Law allowing the people of Hong Kong to pick their own leaders. I also believe that the PRC and Legco can accede to 5 demands and still keep Hong Kong as part of the China under One Country Two Systems.
The CPC backed Police are going to kill every last one of these protestors. Hong Kong is turning into a full blown partisan conflict. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...t-spreads-idUSKBN1XQ0OJ?utm_source=reddit.com https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1492855-20191118.htm https://v.redd.it/x6wslaewp9z31
Unfortunately for CPC the world is watching live as opposed to to 1989. https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1492830-20191118.htm Police warn they may use live ammo on protesters The police have warned protesters that officers may start using live ammunition against protesters, after a day of violent clashes around the Polytechnic University. Photos appearing to show police holding AR15-style semi-automatic weapons have been circulating online, further raising fears of a bloody crackdown.
Of course they can, but do they want to so with all the implications "giving in" carries with it? The government's relationships with others are always on terms that demand submission from the other party. My guess is that the government would prefer to raise the city to the ground if the other option involved negotiated terms, at least as long as the people of China proper are still squarely behind them and blaming the whole thing on the "cockroaches".
Both sides need to understand each other. The protesters need to understand how important it is that Hong Kong remain part of China but the PRC needs to understand the uniqueness of Hong Kong. If that uniqueness isn't preserved there will never be peace in Hong Kong. More importantly for the CCP the people of Taiwan will never accept a union with the PRC if things are not resolved well in HK.
I like your positivity but honestly u have a better chance at winning the lottery twice than seeing Beijing accept the so called "5 demands".
I’ll fully admit that my argument currently seems very unlikely and that the CCP is very unwilling to agree with the 5 demands but I don’t think there is anyway out that doesn’t end well. If the PRC and HKPD violently crush the demonstrators as they are doing, albeit without using max lethality. It won’t look good to the rest of the world also as shown by ongoing protest by white collar workers in Central that isn’t stopping the movement. If the CCP grants true self-rule as promised along with the other 5, now 4 that the extradition bill is tabled, there is hope. Further it will look better to the rest of the world including Taiwan.
The front line protesters totally screwed themselves by trying to hang onto PolyU and abandoning their "Be Like Water" mantra. All the other campuses got abandoned last week, I'm not sure why they insisted on hanging onto PolyU besides the fact that it controls a vital artery for road transportation. PolyU is built like a fortress, which is great for keeping HKPD out but also great for keeping the protesters in. You don't bring a few days worth of supplies for a war of attrition. If HKPD is smart (which they often are not), they should just wait it out and within a few days every protester/rioter remaining in PolyU will have to come out and surrender because you can't live more than a few days without clean drinking water. I predict this will be a big setback for the frontline protesters/rioters as probably the most hardcore and influential ones are still inside.
There isn't a solution. Many of the protesters want self determination and there is no way China gives it to them. The protesters will not (and should not) trust the CCP will follow the one country/two system model. Hong Kong never should have been given to China, that is on the UK and the USA for allowing it to happen. They should have been granted their own status.
Why is it important that Hong Kong remain part of China is they do not want to be part of China? Further, the CCP doesn't care about the uniqueness of Hong Kong.... they want it to simply be part of China. Also Taiwan has no desire anytime soon to be ruled under oppressive CCP policies. I appreciate your hope but it doesn't fit the actors involved. The CCP is a menace and they know they can crush Hong Kong and bend them to their will. Many people in Hong Kong cannot imagine being ruled by such an oppressive regime.
The thing most important to not just the CCP but most people in China is the idea of one China. There are many in Hong Kong who feel that way too. What’s happening in Hong Kong isn’t a foreign occupation but something that is far more like Northern Ireland where there is a significant divide within the populace. Note independence from China isn’t one of the Five Demands. What’s in it for the CCP is that it would be a major propaganda coup for them that they could hold up to Europe and the US if they fully lived up to the One Country Two Systems. There is also the economic benefit of continuing to allow Hong Kong operate fully integrated with global systems. The biggest reason though is Taiwan. If there is any hope of peaceful reunification the PRC needs to make HK work out.
I don’t like or trust Xi Jinping and I think the Xi the centralization if power under Xi is a threat to not just other countries but a long term threat to the PRC. That said I’m not interested in an ideological war between the West and China. I don’t see this as a conflict between Capitalism and Communism. Most of alI don’t want to see Hong Kong used for an ideological battleground by those who want to prove the superiority of their belief system.
It isn't a conflict between Capitalism and Communism. It is a war over what rights and liberties people have though. It is an ideological war between the supremacy of the state and the sanctity of personal rights. It is extremely hard to find a middle ground under these circumstances and that is why blood shed will likely happen. When you have such vastly different philosophies on what role government should play conflict will happen.
Yes many people in mainland China want a single China and want Taiwan and Hong Kong to fall in line. It is almost impossible to differentiate how much of that is from CCP brainwashing and how much of that is long term cultural (as that is part of it as well). Hong Kong is at the mercy of the CCP, and the people in Hong Kong know that. Some are okay with that and others are not. I have a good amount of family in Hong Kong, and have visited numerous times. Many people want self determination and self rule without the influence of the mainland China and the CCP. The CCP likely could have softened the protests and calls for rebellion at any earlier time but the protesters have become more radical and emboldened over time. Also if your comments about "superiority of ideology" is directed at me, I take umbrage at that as I have a number of relatives and friends that are in the middle of it and very well could be injured or be subject to living under CCP for the rest of their lives. Also as for Taiwan, I do not see peaceful unification being feasible anytime soon based on who rules China and their motivations. I would hope that the United States would stand up for Taiwan if China attempted to take it by force, but that is likely wishful thinking. The UK should have let Hong Kong leave as their own entity and the USA should have provided protection if the people of Hong Kong wanted it.
If you want to play revisionist history, the UK never should have forced China to allow them to dump opium on the local populace by waging war and taking Hong Kong for 99 years as punishment for trying to stop them. And let's not pretend like the US is a benevolent angel that rides on a white horse protecting the innocents around the world. Ask the Syrian Kurds and Iraqis how things are working out for them. The fact is, there wasn't enough for the US to gain by risking going to war over HK. Now if there were undiscovered oil wells underneath HK, that'd be a different story.
As bad as this post may sound and I will catch hell from you guys, I for once want to see the ChiCom opens fire and crushes these freedom loving HK protesters. I believe that is the only thing that will wake us up and unite the whole world against this modern plague of the 21st century known as Red China. These commie bastards truly want to rule the world, they do not play by any rules and will stop at nothing until they achieve their goals. We in the West, particularly the US had a big hand in feeding this evil since Nixon decided to do business with them and Slick Willie just let them steal every invention and technology that our talented people came up with. When a regime such as this that killed 70 millions of its own citizens and had caused untold sufferings to others, we have to stand united against this evil and fight these commies until they collapse, and not be seduced and bribed by their dirty money.
it is on you for being ill-informed as to how HK became a colony of Britain instead of publicizing ur ignorance, you should read the history book on the opium war.
Nope I’m quite aware of how Hong Kong became a British colony. Absolutely nothing I posted pertained to how Hong Kong came under the rule of the UK. You are projecting AGAIN. I am not sure put you often project opinions or issues and insecurities on other people. No one was discussing or contesting how Hong Kong became a colony. It really isn’t relevant to what was being discussed.
Who said the USA is some benevolent white knight? I sure didn’t. I never made any comment on what Britain did with China or Hong Kong. All I said was that when the UK surrendered Hong Kong they should have allowed Hong Kong to decide if they wanted to be part of China or their own entity. All of this is recent history and is coming to a head at this point. All that has happened is everyone (UK and China) except Hong Kong has decided the fate of Hong Kong. The people of Hong Kong are not looking at having basic human rights stripped from them by the CCP.
Since you have connections to Hong Kong you should know that this isn't just a matter of a small amount of people OK with the CCP but there is a significant and genuine support. Protesters wouldn't have set fire to an old man if that wasn't the case. There are some very deeply held beliefs on both sides that are becoming difficult to resolve without violence. In regard to just saying people are brainwashed or just cultural ignores that there are legitimate reasons why many Chinese feel the way they do. I fully agree the CCP uses a lot of propaganda but there is no doubt they've delivered on the promises made under Deng and that the PRC is one generation removed from poverty and mass starvation to the verge of a superpower gives the CCP legitimacy. For HK it is a much more complicated picture. There are many wealthy people who have benefited from close connections with the CCP while also having business ties in the PRC. Besides that most business people just want stability and see the protests as hurting that. There are also many of the older, poorer and working class who also support the PRC. Some of the older people remember that things weren't that great under the UK and prior to this year the largest protests that HK faced was int he 60's against the British. Some of the strongest support for the PRC is in areas that are far from Central and Kowloon that are poorer. No I wasn't directing that comment at you. I actually had Ted Cruz in mind when I wrote it. That said I have family also in the middle of it and right now too and to be frank I am much more concerned about their immediate safety than whether they live under the CCP. This though gets into my point. As an American I wouldn't want to live under the restrictions of the PRC. I chafe under the restrictions of the "capitalistic" Singapore. I don't know if that applies to my family or to many in HK. It's not for me to tell them to fight and risk their lives if they don't believe like I do. As I've said many times Hong Kong isn't an abstraction for me. If you do know about the PRC then you should also know that the one situation that will guarantee a military intervention by the PRC is if there is foreign intervention in Hong Kong. That is in the basic law treaty. This is why if I could speak directly to the Hong Kong protesters they should stop waving American and British flags. First off Trump isn't going to intervene he's already said so and the UK is far too weak to do anything significant. Besides that it hurts their cause as the CCP already portrays this as being driven by foreign influences and not as an organic movement of the people of HK. Flying foreign flags just feeds into that perception. It's the same as when immigrant marches here in the US wave Mexican flags.
