So, here's the deal. We trade Juwan, Sura's contract, and Rybo to Portland for Raef Lafrentz. And here's the lineups. You run Synder out there with the first unit and spread the floor with Snyder, Battier, and Rafer/Spanoulis, allowing plenty of space for 111. Doesn't really matter of Bonzi or Synder start, as long as Snyder or some other distance shooter sees considerable minutes with 111, and Bonzi is on the floor as the post up option when Yao is off the floor. Then with the 2nd unit, you run Bonzi and Raef in there with Lil Chuckie, Rafer/Span/JLIII, and another 3 point shooter. Bonzi posts up and you've got Raef and 2 others around the arc with Lil Chuckie down low cleaning up the mess. IF VSpan or JLIII is in there, you could even run the PnR with them and Bonzi. Yes, Raef is overpaid........but.........Juwan is even more so for what he brings on the court and if Sura can't go, that's another almost $4 million of dead weight, not to mention Rybo. Raef is a great shooter from range. And defensively, he is an intimidating shot blocker. He's coming off an injury and his blocks were down last year as a result but he is a shot intimidator in the paint. Even last year, an off year for Raef as far as blocking shots goes, he still blocked 9 times as many shots as Juwan......in fewer minutes. We need to understand, Juwan gives us nothing defensively. Is Raef a great rebounder? No. He is very average. (He's a better rebounder than Juwan.) But he is a great fundamental position player that does scrape in there and he would be a very good complement to Yao defensively when we run in to the occasional team that goes with 2 bigs. Not only that, but our team is going to win the rebounding war more often than not with a combination of Yao, McGrady, Chuckie, and now Bonzi playing major minutes. Those are 4 guys who can get 10 boards anytime. Van Gundy's teams do not have problems clearing the defensive glass. His defensive philosophy keeps the guards back for the most part so that the numbers are in our favor on the glass. Raef is a significnt upgrade to Juwan in all phases of the game except maybe FT shooting which is inconsequential. And they are really about the same there. Now, as far as salary. We are stuck to Juwan for the next 3 years at around $6.4 million, $6.9 million, and $7.3 million. And I mean we are stuck. You cannot have watched Juwan last year and not been able to see that he is basically a short backup center with 17 feet of shooting range and no defensive ability whatsoever. Juwan provides the quintessential "veteran leadership" and that's about it. He is too slow and when combined on the floor with Yao makes us way to susceptible to teams that have speed and quickness (95% of the NBA). He has limited range and clogs up the floor, allowing his defender to help out on Yao and let him bang away with that clothesline jump shot. And he is right in the way when Yao and TMac run the PnR. He has to move to the perimeter where he is worse than useless. That's why Yao's +/- numbers when paired with Juwan are atrocious while with every other player Yao is paired with, they are positive. And is it really going to help us just to add a big lug like say Danny Fartson, who basically gives you 6 fouls and that's it?? (I'm talking about after Fartson is waived and is able to be signed at the minimum.) We can get 6 fouls from Raef along with 2 or 3 bombs and a shot block or two. So, if we don't sign a minimum salaried player as the backup 5, then some of you are advocating using the TE on to acquire a PF such as Ely or a backup 5/4 such as Chris Mihm. That just doesn't make sense to me unless we are somehow going to be able to dump Juwan's contract for expirings. If we were to use the TE on a player like Ely for instance, that essentially means you've got over $10 million wrapped up in Juwan and Ely together. Not to mention, somebody else has got to go, most likely somebody guaranteed. And combined, Juwan and Ely will give you maybe 4 or 5 boards and 8 points a game. Ely, or the equivalent, becomes your backup center. And we're running Ely and Howard out there as the backups at the 4/5 positions. After Deke retires next year, we are going to have to pay somebody to backup Yao. If you use the TE on Mihm, he's a FA next year. If you want to keep him, you've gotta pay him, and you're still stick with.........Juwan. So, when you look at that, it essentially means we will have pretty close to $10 million wrapped up in Juwan and whoever we sign anyways. And once again, Juwan is nothing but a money pit that the ground floor is already caved in. I can't say it enough. If we were able to make a move, sending out Juwan's contract in combination with Sura's contract (if he is indeed going to retire), plus maybe a player like Luther to get the deal done, in exchange for a player like Raef, we can afford to absorb that salary. Raef is 3 years younger than Juwan, infinitely better, and when his contract expires, he will be the age that Juwan is now. And we don't have to find pay a backup center another $2 to $4 million to do nothing and be useless even when Yao went down. Raef would actually be useful as a rotation player that has some skillz. He can shoot the bball and he can give you some D and blocked shots. He will give us a legit 20-25 decent productive minutes per game, especially when he is asked to play against second stringers. Our rotation would essentially be: TMAc Yao Battier Bonzi Rafer Snyder (I think he works out well as the primary 2/3 backup/spot starter) Raef Hayes Spanoulis/JLIII and leaves maybe 5 mpg for Novak/Jacobsen. This would work next year as well and we could still add a possible draft pick, and/or if Bonzi walks on us, go after another SG in free agency. So, why does Portland do this? Very simply. Cap space. They can lop off another $4-$5 million of cap space for next seaseon. They're going to the lottery and they need as much space as possible to add impact free agents. So flame me. But I think Raef would fit and be an upgrade over Juwan and whoever else we would have to sign to repace Deke next year and whoever else we would need to sign this year with the TE as a backup 4/5.
Raef just makes to much money though. I mean he is at 10M plus this season. Of course, we get rid of Juwan, but instead we would be getting into an even worst contract. I like Raef, good shooting ability and blocking ability. His knees are pretty brittle though. That's what has affected his career, in terms of productivity. He is no longer fast, so a line up with him and Yao would only work with teams which have two traditional post men, which there isn't many actually. At the end we get rid of Juwan, but honestly, Raef its not ages ahead of Juwan either, because he still doesn't give much defense besides his occasional blocks and his shooting range, but after that, it's nothing that is worth 10M plus for each of his next 3 seasons remaining on his contract.
Sort of off on a tanget... I wonder what's going on with Sura now that you mention his contract. If he retires, things are simple. But what if he doesn't retire and the Rockets determine JL and Spanoulis are capable PGs with more youth and potential? Would he rather be traded/bought out than simply taking a seat on the bench sharing his wisdom? Would he rather retire than move to another team?
Sorry but it won't work. Portland will not go for it. Why would they want Howard? They have a bunch of PF already not to mention their 1st round pick. Who's going to play C for them? You are assuming cap space is that important and it's 5 mil at max. That's not going to do it I'm afraid. Would be nice to dump my garage and get a Surf and Turf meal back too. And I would not "throw" Head in for this trade to work. Besides, what is Raef's salary? Nice try and no this is not flaming. But nice try anyway.
portland might go for it. the question is, is it a good move for the rox? for portland, they get one of the most quality nba vets (which is a big selling point for them right now) and they make out better finacially because of this deal. sura comes off the books in a year and jho's contract is smaller and shorter than raefs. who will play C for them? magloire, przybilla, and aldridge. they definitely don't need raef. if portland doesn't have any PT for him and they sure as hell don't want his contract then it should be easy to trade for him. again, i'm not sure it's a smart move for the rockets cap-wise.
over 10 mil this year, over 11 mil next year, and over 12 mil the following year. It was one of the stupid contract Cuban handed out. It is a lot more than 5 mil between his contract and Howard's.
JoPat - Really surprised that you would propose this trade. Anytime you have to trade three players to get one back has to make you think twice. For 10M and 3 players, you want a stud that plays FT minutes. Raef played under 30MPG with Boston the last two years and barely averaged more than JH statwise at the position. He is a good 3 point shooter for a big man but he ain't worth 10M a year. You think there is b****ing about Juwan, it would be nothing compared to what it would be like if Raef was on the team.
I thought Juwan was bad, but Raef is even worse. There's no way you can justify that contract. Even in his prime he didn't deserve to be paid this much for this long. He's not even as good as Troy Murphy, who many consider to be overpaid. Now he's even worse defensively and his knees look shot. He is a bench player, plain and simple. Seriously, I would rather just let Juwan expire in three years rather than have Raef on this team and pull my hair out over his contract. No more big contracts unless they've earned it. Even the cancerous Kenyon Martin had the decency to earn his contract before he stunk it up. You want an overpaid PF? Just pray that Carlos Boozer pulls a Kenyon Martin and we can pawn Juwan, Luther, and Snyder on them. Or something like that. LaFrentz isn't just overpaid now, he always was.
I'd do it. His contract isn't that much worse than Howard's, and he could be much more valuable to us than Howard, because of threes and shot-blocking.
Ain't no way. Jopat, your hatred of Juwan has taken you off the deep end again. Raef isn't nearly as good as you say. He would instantly take Juwan's place as the most berated player on the team. He isn't "infinitely better" than anyone in the NBA. I wouldn't trade them straight up even if the salary cap allowed it, much less give up Luther (or anything else of value). This is the kind of trade Isiah Thomas would make if he was GM of the Rockets. jopatmc, you know not to consider this flaming.
jopatmc, don't know if you read it, but I originally suggested this in the Wells signing thread: Houston Trade Breakdown Outgoing Bob Sura 6-5 from Florida State No games yet played in 2005/06 Juwan Howard 6-9 PF from Michigan 11.8 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.4 apg in 31.7 minutes Incoming Raef LaFrentz 6-11 C from Kansas 7.8 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 1.4 apg in 24.7 minutes Change in team outlook: -4.0 ppg, -1.7 rpg, and 0.0 apg. Portland Trade Breakdown Outgoing Raef LaFrentz 6-11 C from Kansas 7.8 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 1.4 apg in 24.7 minutes Incoming Bob Sura 6-5 from Florida State No games yet played in 2005/06 Juwan Howard 6-9 PF from Michigan 11.8 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.4 apg in 31.7 minutes Change in team outlook: +4.0 ppg, +1.7 rpg, and 0.0 apg. Successful Scenario Due to Houston and Portland being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Houston and Portland had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement. http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=2509365&postcount=270 I think that Lafrentz' 3-point shooting and shot-blocking skills would complement Yao much better than Howard's skills. Howard really doesn't excel in anything. Also, while their contracts are the same length, Howard is older than LaFrentz. Plus, Lafrentz is taller than Howard, so he is better equipped to play some backup center, which should not be neglected considering Mutombo's age.
Per A3PO: "Ain't no way. Jopat, your hatred of Juwan has taken you off the deep end again. Raef isn't nearly as good as you say. He would instantly take Juwan's place as the most berated player on the team. He isn't "infinitely better" than anyone in the NBA. I wouldn't trade them straight up even if the salary cap allowed it, much less give up Luther (or anything else of value). This is the kind of trade Isiah Thomas would make if he was GM of the Rockets. jopatmc, you know not to consider this flaming." Completely agree- Juwan's contract will espire and he does not mind coming off the bench. I have been disappointed with Juwan's contract , but Raef's contract from genius Cuban is worse. Raef is a stiff, but has a nice jump shot. We have Juwan for shooting those 15 footers, and he gets along with everyone. The coach likes him. No to Raef.... __________________
At this point in his career, after knee surgeries, Raef is a fairly mediocre shot blocker, and his lateral quickness is just about as bad as Juwan's. He's got some size and a 3 pt shot, but his slowness means he'll get his ass busted trying to defend good PFs like Duncan, Garnett, Brand, etc. Raef is a step up from Juwan, but I'd rather play Battier or Hayes for these minutes over either Juwan or Raef... so, among players I don't want to play anyway, I'd take the cheaper one.
No on wants Juwon's lazy @ss and his losing history on their team. No one! Except the Rockets.... Why would anyone trade for him? Sheesh.... Even Isiah Thomas preferred to take Mo Taylor instead of Juwon.
If LaFrentz didn't make so much money, the Rocket should be pushing for this type of trade. He blocks and rebounds better than Juwon, and can shoot the 3pter very well in certain spots. It's just the money. Let's say Portland agrees to the deal. Rybo's and Sura's contract come off the books this year and next year. So that $5million difference between JHo and LaFrentz becomes a big deal, especially if that $5million could take the Rockets to luxury tax land. If Les Alexander is like most owners, he doesn't want to be taxed, and having LaFrentz on the roster would mean the Rockets might not be able to use their MLE without getting taxed. So that's why they aren't pursuing it. The only possibility is if the Rockets can somehow convince LaFrentz to take his Early Termination Option and give up the $24.5 million dollars left on the last 2 years of his contract. And I don't see that happening.
You miss the whole point of the fact that we still need a backup 5 next year after Deke retires. That's gonna cost us at least $2 million to get a veteran and probably a little bit more. Or we can go with a rookie free agent at the minimum and get nothing. So, the odds are next season, we will be dumping close to $10 million in Juwan and another scrub 6 fouler. I'd rather have Raef and have your backup 5 and backup 4 to boot. It winds up being virtually the same money spent for a guy that can backup both positions and complete our 4/5 rotation with Yao, Battier, and Chuckie. There's your 5 bigs (yeah, Chuckie plays a big spot). Otherwise, we keep Juwan and have to add another big anyways. Right? That $5 million is more than likely to be spent acquiring talent anyways. A lot of people are advocating we use the TE and add ELy this year already. Once Deke is gone ($2 million or so) we are going to have to add it anyways. If you believe that Raef makes too much then you have to believe that we should not use or TE to add another $4 million of salary for a big man either. You can't have it both ways. And Juwan's contract lasts for 3 years just as long as Raef's, not to mention if we sign an Ely, we are locked into that deal for at least 3 years if not more. It's the same money guys.
it would be nice to hear that sportscenter guy pumping up Rocket highlights with "say hello to Raef LaFrentz!" but I see Padgett as giving us what LaFrentz would, for alot cheaper price tag!
