Here's a story out of the UK that first gave me a bit of a chuckle, then serious contemplation: http://politicalscrapbook.net/2011/...-fake-gay-leaflets-delivered-in-muslim-areas/ In the West, are we promoting tolerance for two groups that are fundamentally opposed and will not tolerate each other? I think Westerners are becoming more tolerant to homosexuals and Muslims (although the former is following a more linear track). Can this keep up? Or will tolerance to Muslims hurt tolerance to homosexuals? (Please don't take this as an endorsement of intolerance in any form. I'm just asking the questions.)
I don't believe it will: as I think younger, urban, assimilated Muslims will empathize with gays as outsiders; but I recognize that one of the few things fundy/orthodox religious figures agree on is their perceived sinfulness of homosexuality.
It won't be a problem for the next generation. Maybe for the last couple of generations it would've been, but in reality, interpretation of the Quran seems to be becoming more liberal as we go along.
I honestly don't think it's too much of a problem---if most moderate Christians can accept homosexuals now, I cannot see what will prevent moderate Muslims from doing so later.
It would be harder for Muslims because their head guy wasn't a tolerant all loving hippie Jesus was. "Love thy Neighbor" pretty much allows Christians to tolerate anything. Edit: I hate it when I type too fast.
^Would be true if a surprising amount of Christians didn't fixate on "homosexuality is an abomination" rather than Jesus' principles. The Bible is chock full of principles we selectively ignore because they are patently outrageous or unworkable. Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity." or in nice biblical LOL version--- Hopefully, ALL of us, Christians, Jews, and Muslims, will realize how absurd it is to be literally basing our lives on select portions of what amounts to an unworkable book of laws from the 1st or 2nd century, while still retaining the lessons of love and compassion given to us by such great figures as Jesus and the Prophet Mohammad.
Nah, lets just use religion as an excuse to rape and murder. It seems to be more popular then Justin Beiber and Hannah Montana combined. Watch out, the Hitler references will be flying your way shortly.
The interpretation of all Abrahamic religions with regards to homosexuality is very negative. However, I always think that if you are clear-headed about this, any condemnation of fundamentalist Christian principles has to be a condemnation of extreme Muslim positions as well. There are hypocrites among us, but I do think the large part of pro-gay rights liberals are well aware of this threat from both the Christian Right and aspects of Islam. sometimes it's hard to tell who's more extreme though. I hasten to point out Uganda, the 84% Christian state, that has a criminal bill that basically stipulates being gay means life imprisonment or execution (though that might be pared back--but imagine, this bulls*** actually passed any f***** body of law in the first place.). and guess who's cheer-leading them on? the Christian religious right http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/04/world/africa/04uganda.html "dark and secret homosexual agenda"---vague threat to Bible values. "overt Christian agenda"---openly supporting executing homosexuals i hope the irony is not lost on all of you
Some of the leftist dreamers who are so quick to discredit people who warn of certain attitudes as "islamophobes" have no idea that they are blindly defending the spread of some attitudes they would normally be equally quick to label as "homophobic".
Like people have said in this thread the more conservative/radical/fundamental/extreme in most religions are not tolerant of homosexuality. IMHO the problem is that when you are less tolerant of a religion the people of that religion tend to become more extreme in order to maintain their "identity". So I'm one of those "Leftist dreamers", who believes that when people become more tolerant of the Islam, the amount of radical/ fundamental/ extremist Muslims will decrease and therefore the tolerance of Homosexuality will increase. I have to say that the intolerance towards Homosexuality in most major religion is one of the things I find disgusting.
Good luck with that. -------------- http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality, says poll Survey shows UK Muslims have more conservative attitudes on sex than Muslims in France and Germany Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance towards homosexual acts compared to their counterparts in France and Germany, according to a survey published today. The Gallup poll features the results of telephone and face-to-face interviews with Muslims and non-Muslims in the UK, France and Germany and is designed to measure global attitudes towards people from different faith traditions. It shows that British Muslims hold more conservative opinions towards homosexual acts, abortion, viewing p*rnography, suicide and sex outside marriage than European Muslims, polling markedly lower when asked if they believed these things were morally acceptable. The most dramatic contrast was found in attitudes towards homosexuality. None of the 500 British Muslims interviewed believed that homosexual acts were morally acceptable. 1,001 non-Muslim Britons were interviewed. By comparison, 35% of French Muslims found homosexual acts to be acceptable. A question on p*rnography also elicited different reactions, with French and German Muslims more likely than British Muslims to believe that watching or reading p*rnography was morally acceptable. On the issue of sexual relations between unmarried men and women, general populations surveyed express similar views, with the majority believing it was acceptable. But the Muslim populations polled again reflected greater diversity on the matter. French Muslims ranked highest again, with 48% believing it was acceptable, followed by 27% of German Muslims responding favourably. British Muslims came last, with only 3% of those questioned personally believing that sex between unmarried men and women was moral. There was a similar outcome when asked for their views on extra-marital affairs. The survey was formally launched in London today by Dalia Mogahed, who was recently appointed to US president Barack Obama's advisory council on faith-based and neighbourhood partnerships and is executive director of the Gallup Centre for Muslim Studies. Mogahed said some of the findings surprised her, particularly that British Muslims identified more with their home nation than did non-Muslims because "it flew in the face of conventional wisdom". She expressed concern that British Muslims were less happier and less "thriving" than Muslims overseas. "The British Muslim community is disproportionately unemployed." The report suggested that integration should be focusing on economic opportunity rather than religious issues, she added. The survey, the Gallup Coexist Index 2009, concluded that while European Muslims not only accepted but welcomed the freedoms, democratic institutions, justice, and human rights that characterised their societies, their perceived lack of integration was often explained by their rejection of liberal, sexual mores. It said: "Some researchers point out that the greatest differences between Muslims and westerners lie more in eros than demos. In other words, the Muslim-west gap rests on differences in attitudes toward sexual liberalisation and gender issues rather than democracy and governance. "This theory implies that the west speaks with one voice on issues of morals, tolerance, and sexual freedom. Furthermore, this line of argument contends that this unified system of western values represents the logical progression in all civilized, modern societies and Muslims are expected to embrace such liberal views, if they are to live in the west." As an example the survey cited an incident from 2006, when the state of Baden-Wurttemberg in Germany introduced a naturalisation test to assess applicants' moral views. One of its questions was: "What do you think about the fact that homosexual people hold official offices in Germany?" Agreed.
Thanks. What do you think would be the result of such a poll 30 years ago among christians? (or even nowadays?).
In Germany, hate crimes against LGBT groups is rising at a startling rate of between 2-5% annually according to different studies. At this rate, Germany is about 10 years away from being like that group of 500 UK Muslims. Here's an example: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,562638,00.html and another example of these ludicrous views: http://911blogger.com/news/2011-01-21/poll-germany-895-doubt-official-version-911 It seems Germany is hoarding these homophobic people. There are some studies which show that it's due in large part to Turkish immigration, but even if true, one has to wonder why Germany is allowing this to flourish if it is genuinely opposed to homophobia. Why are the authorities in Germany incapable of handling the problems which come with its immigration policy? It's just a mess it seems. Germany needs to stop accepting immigrants if it can't assess them and deal with them properly. It's unusual that they accept all these people and let them in, then proceed to harp on about historical traits/attributes of their race/religion. These are not new things, these are things known to the German government beforehand, and if they want to act on them, then they shouldn't wait till their hands are tied. Homophobia has a long history in Germany, as it does in many other countries. The moment you take your eye off it, it will flourish. That's what's happened in much of the poorer countries in the world and now it's difficult to control. Germany needs to be careful. I don't know why they are continuing to accept these immigrants. It's as if they can't differentiate people except by race or religion when they're doing this immigration thing. While it's true that Germany really needs an infusion of immigration, like much of Europe, but they shouldn't lower their standards to do it. This is really causing problems. I hope the situation doesn't degrade till it mimics the situation in countries that are known to be and have not yet made steps to rectify homophobia.
So do you suggest we kick out people of Turkish and Arabic background? Why are you pointing fingers at the German authorities? The root cause is the ideology these people believe in. You are like someone blaming the doctor who treats the drug addict: "Why are you incapable of curing this patient? Why did you accept this patient for treatment?"
Kick out? You're so quick to take the wipe out method lol. The people who are German are German. They elect the government as well, and the government is responsible for taking care of them. Independent of that, the authorities must be held accountable for continuing policies. The German authorities are responsible for two things here: the immigration policy and protecting German citizens. They have swallowed a pill that's too big, but there is no "undo" button, you can not SEND BACK people who you've officially taken in and have made Germany their home. But what you can do is stop this problem from growing, if the government sees it as a problem. Those people are behaving in exactly the way they were when Germany accepted their immigration - they are not responsible to change. If they didn't meet the requirements, then they would have been turned back. At this point I think Germany is so desperately in need of the immigration, that it is willing to accept these things on an ongoing basis. There is a price to pay for needing this immigration, and that price is the assimilation of their lifestyle into the German lifestyle, rather than a re-programming to German lifestyle.
Blablabla. You know nothing, but talk a lot. Why don't you worry about the ideology of intolerance that causes these problems.
So if you are anti-gay then you get "turned back"? I sort of assume that you are a liberal (because most are on this site are) - but that sort of thinking is something most liberals would accuse conservatives of - those that are unable to assimilate into German (could very well be American too) are not worthy of acceptance into the country. A LOT (dare I say well over 50 percent) of Latin immigrants in the U.S. would be sent back. I suppose homophobic illegals would be deported. The problem is you have to pick between : 1. tolerance of homosexuality 2. tolerance of non-white and non-Asian cultures. (I include Asians here because they do not fall under the protection of the Politcal Correctness shield for some reason). But acceptance of number 2 means acceptance of homophobic viewpoints. You have to take a real stance here. Don't pin it on German immigration policy for not being "selective" enough. If it was white Christian fundamentalists immigrants who were being homophobic - you would probably blame them as well you should.
