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James Harden is Top 10 All Time in TS%

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by slestack11, Nov 2, 2014.

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  1. slestack11

    slestack11 Member

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    Since TS% is such an important stat on this site, I thought I'd mention that James Harden is top 10 All-time (not counting ABA stats). For those interested, here are the top 10 of all time:

    1. Artis Gilmore .643
    2. Cedric Maxwell .629
    3. James Donaldson .618
    4. Adrian Dantley .617
    5. Tyson Chandler .615
    6. Reggie Miller .614
    7. Charles Barkley .612
    8. Magic Johnson .610
    9. John Stockton .608
    10. James Harden .607

    Just a note, since this stat is all telling for who is the best and most efficient offensive player, here are some players that we didn't realize were totally overrated offensively:

    24. Kareem Abdul Jabbar .592
    37. Shaquille Oneal .586
    39. Manu Ginobili .589
    45. Dirk Nowitzki .582
    47. Lebron James .581
    56. Karl Malone .577
    60. Chris Paul .575
    75. Paul Pierce .56892
    77. Michael Jordan .5686
    79. Dwyane Wade .568
    94. Larry Bird .565
    95. Oscar Robertson .564 (Actually tied with Brad Miller)
    107. James Worthy .559
    114. Julius Erving .558 (Tied with Paul Westphal)
    133. Kobe Bryant .555 (Tied with Danny Ainge)
    145. Hakeem Olajuwon .553
    155. Tony Parker .551
    157. Tim Duncan .5509
    182. Kevin Garnett .547

    How did James Harden accomplish this? Lets take a look at this year. I know it's only a sample size of 3 games, but he is 18-49 from the field which is .367. He is also 6-17 from the three point line which is .353. But he has 36 free throws in three games which is 12 per game. With those free throws, he is 34-36 and .944. With these stats, his TS% is .589 which is good for 39th all time which matches Manu Ginobili's career TS%.

    TS% = Points/(2 * FGA) + (0.88 * FTA) =
    76/(2 * 49) + (0.88 * 36) = .589

    Not to sound too "captain obvious", but my conclusion is that Harden achieved such a high TS% with a FG% of .367 and 3Pt% of .353 is because he got to the line 12 times per game. Here's where my proof becomes subjective...but I think Harden laterally runs into players to flop out these foul calls to get his 12 free throws per game. So if this is the method of determining the best offensive player of all time, then it's a sad state for the NBA. If you do the sniff test, it doesn't seem like James Harden should be considered a better offensive player than Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Dwayne Wade, Larry Bird, and Dr. J...but if TS% is truly the judge of who the greatest and most efficient offensive players, then I say the NBA sucks now. Because it has become a league where flopping skill is standard where the most efficient offensive players are determined now. Forget all the championship rings between Jordan, Kobe, Bird, DWade, and Dr. J, they just are not efficient enough to be considered a top offensive player. Or, maybe TS% is just a misleading stat.

    And I pose this question...why is Cedric Maxwell not getting more love from this site? He is the #2 all time in career TS% and played for the Rockets in 1987/88.

    Another note...Reggie Miller ranks #6 all time in TS% and took advantage of his kickout when he took a 3 to draw fouls. They eventually made a rule to negate the loophole he found. I admit, James Harden is very talented at taking advantage of a similar loophole by laterally running into people to draw fouls. Just seems like it's time to create a James Harden rule to close the loophole. They don't call these 50/50 calls in the playoffs though and may be the primary reason Harden struggles in the playoffs.

    Background data:
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ts_pct_career.html
     
    #1 slestack11, Nov 2, 2014
    1 person likes this.
  2. Aleron

    Aleron Member

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    lebron james and kevin durant were given way more minutes to chuck in force earlier in their careers, they are better on a pure TS measurement, but those early years of playtime skew the results. The evolution of lebron james (or something similarly named) was done by i think kirk goldsberry that shows how his shot chart has basically morphed from looking like kobe's to looking like harden's.

    For the most part i think 0-2 year college players should probably have their first years excluded (something very rare amongst the old fogies)

    As for Cedric, well, you might want to look where he earned his finals mvp...lol, honestly though, a lot of those great teams had guys like him before they even understood why guys like him were so valuable, also foul rates were so much higher back then, it was a whistle bonanza (in spite of some perceptions, the last 2 years have been the lowest 2 foul rates in nba history)
     
    #2 Aleron, Nov 2, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2014
  3. J Sizzle

    J Sizzle Member

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    slestack11 whining about Harden? This is new...
     
    #3 J Sizzle, Nov 2, 2014
  4. CCM721

    CCM721 Member

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    Why would we, as in people who frequent a Rockets fans site, want the NBA to create a "James Harden rule" to the detriment of our best player. I mean that is assuming you are a Rockets fan.
     
    #4 CCM721, Nov 2, 2014
  5. slestack11

    slestack11 Member

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    I'm creating a new meaningless stat called TS% Effectiveness (TSE%). This is a stat that determines how many championships produced per TS% delivered. So the formula is as such:

    TSE% = # of championships * (Points/(2*FGA) + (0.88 * 36))

    Here's how the top 10 TS% rank in this TSE% stat:

    1. Magic Johnson - 3.048
    2. Cedric Maxwell - 1.258
    3. Tyson Chandler - 0.615
    4. Artis Gilmore - 0
    5. James Donaldson - 0
    6. Adrian Dantley - 0
    7. Reggie Miller - 0
    8. Charles Barkely - 0
    9. John Stockton - 0
    10. James Harden - 0

    How about where Michael Jordan, Kobe, Dr. J, and Larry Bird score?

    Jordan - 3.41
    Kobe - 2.775
    Bird - 1.694
    Dr. J - 1.674

    So ranking these by my new and meaningless TSE% stat:

    1. Jordan 3.41
    2. Magic 3.048
    3. Kobe 2.775
    4. Bird 1.694
    5. Dr. J 1.674

    Not the most realistic of who is the greatest of all time, but I think it passes the sniff test more than the top 10 career TS% rankings.
     
    #5 slestack11, Nov 2, 2014
  6. Aleron

    Aleron Member

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    titles are won by teams, in the last god knows how long the only title basically won as a one man band was 94 (the only player in nba history to win a title by scoring more than double his teams second highest playoff scorer....whilst also being the best defender in the league)
     
    #6 Aleron, Nov 2, 2014
  7. slestack11

    slestack11 Member

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    If you are going to give Lebron and Durant that sort of pass, then why do we not give Kobe that sort of courtesy? To be fair to Kobe, he was the first non center to break the high school to NBA barrier. When the NBA GMs saw that Kobe was able to deliver an NBA championship in 2000, it changed their opinions of high school players and their transition to the NBA. Lebron drafted in 2003 and given immediate opportunity in Cleveland gives Kobe credit for paving the way. Please do not say that the 2000 championship had nothing to do with Kobe and was all Shaq. Just trying to save another offshoot discussion.
     
    #7 slestack11, Nov 2, 2014
  8. Aleron

    Aleron Member

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    it would apply to him as well, i said all 0-2 players and he was one, the issue isn't kobe, or lebron or durant, it's throwing in raw guys when comparing to the 4 year players that was basically everyone before them, even the player development of these people is fairly normalized, it's about year 2 where a 4 year player makes their final major jump, 3-4 for the 1-2 year guys and somewhere around 5 for these straight out of high school players. Yes Kobe played a part in 00, that was Shaq's year start to finish, no one is winning on their own, after that year he'd come in a ******, let kobe carry the first 30-40 games and then take over, lol, but every year he'd finish higher in mvp voting, every year he'd win finals mvp, it was Shaq and Kobe, not Kobe and Shaq. No one says Robin and Batman.
     
    #8 Aleron, Nov 2, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2014
  9. slestack11

    slestack11 Member

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    I don't mean to totally hate on Harden on a Rockets forum, but I'm a big hater of the fact that NBA refs are determining who wins games...especially in the regular season. The NBA seems to have turned into a league where the offensive players try and run into whoever they can to try and draw fouls as a first option. Then there are two floppers (offensive and defensive) on each of these plays. This results in the refs needing to make a decision on a 50/50 call which ultimately results in the half of the fans complaining that the refs caused their team to lose. I reminisce of the days when the best NBA players tried to just make field goal attempts as a first option and created more drama that didn't encompass the referees determining the winners. James Harden happens to be the biggest offender of this in my opinion so that is why I hate.
     
    #9 slestack11, Nov 2, 2014
  10. slestack11

    slestack11 Member

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    Just an offshoot note, but Kobe is more significant than most people think because he made people think about high school straight to NBA with his accomplishments. I actually compare him a lot to Julius Erving actuallly because Dr. J made people think about the ABA and actually led to the merger. I said it earlier, but if it wasn't for the championship that Kobe was a big part of in 2000, it wouldn't have paved the way for Lebron and others. It also changed the relationship between the NBA and NCAA which resulted in rules to add an age limit to the NBA draft eligible players.
     
    #10 slestack11, Nov 2, 2014
  11. Yung-T

    Yung-T Member

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    Top 187 of all time and above 55 ts % is not "terribly overrated", remember how many players played in the league over the years and how high the usage rate and fga of some stars is.
     
    #11 Yung-T, Nov 2, 2014
  12. Houstunna

    Houstunna Graphic Warning
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    I don't particularly have a problem with Harden's offensive game...... in the regular seaqson.
     
    #12 Houstunna, Nov 2, 2014
  13. t_mac1

    t_mac1 Member

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    TS% is fine and all. But people have to understand FG% matters too. That will determine how teams defend you, whether they will double you more and things like that.

    James has shot sub 40% in the playoffs the past 2 years. I think the offense would flow different and teams would defend the Rockets differently if Harden would shoot his typical 45%.

    So he has to step it up in the playoffs. Sub 40% is just inexcusable, esp. vs 2 teams that aren't considered elite defensively.
     
    #13 t_mac1, Nov 2, 2014
  14. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Every center in the top tier was not a primary scoring option. Every center in the overrated tier was. With the possible exception of Artis, you don't have to account for the top tier guys beyond having your guy guard them. The centers who are overrated warped the floor, had offenses built around them, and faced defenses designed to stop them. Therefore, this analysis and especially the overrated term is stupid.
     
    #14 rimrocker, Nov 2, 2014
  15. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    Kevin Martin is #27 all time for the same reason.

    And of course, Michael Jordan's offensive game is grossly overrated. ;)
     
    #15 Easy, Nov 2, 2014
  16. Air Langhi

    Air Langhi Contributing Member

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    Michael Jordan was an inefficient chucker. He should have been more Harden like. Those mid-range shots were so inefficient.
     
    #16 Air Langhi, Nov 2, 2014
  17. caneks

    caneks Rookie

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    Those stat means **** if you can not have a good FG% in playoffs.
     
    #17 caneks, Nov 2, 2014
  18. VBG

    VBG Member

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    Adrian Dantley has the 4th highest TS% but didn't really help his team win on a superstar level
     
    #18 VBG, Nov 2, 2014
  19. SportsFanatic

    SportsFanatic Member

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    Come on, people can't be taking this stat seriously now.
     
    #19 SportsFanatic, Nov 2, 2014
  20. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    The stat is not meaningless. It does gauge a player's scoring efficiency. But using one single metric to judge the value of a player always results in some ridiculous conclusions.
     
    #20 Easy, Nov 2, 2014
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