1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

  2. ROCKETS GAMEDAY
    The Wizards may be tanking, but the Rockets can't take Washington lightly. Come join Dave, Ben and Chron.com's Michael Shapiro for live postgame after the Rockets-Wizards matchup.

    LIVE! ClutchFans on YouTube
Welcome ClutchFans Live

Spurs already being bashed as worst champs (along with 94 hou)

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by SamFisher, Jun 16, 2003.

Tags:
Page 1 of 2
  1. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    63,284
    Likes Received:
    43,998
    Best of (their) times, worst of (all) times
    By Charley Rosen
    Page 2 columnist


    Now that the 2003 NBA Finals are history, the question arises: Where do the San Antonio Spurs rank in the all-time hierarchy of NBA champions?

    It says here that they belong in the basement.

    In reconsidering the champs of seasons past, one characteristic becomes obvious: Virtually every titlist team showcased a brace of superstars.

    Lakers (2000-2002): Shaq and Kobe.

    Spurs (1999): Tim Duncan, along with David Robinson still in his prime.


    Tim Duncan is a great player, but his Spurs are a one-man gang.
    Bulls (1991-1993,1996-1998): MJ and Scottie Pippen

    Rockets (1995) Hakeem Olajuwon and Clyde Drexler

    Rockets (1994): Olajuwon and a cast of marginalia (Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell and Kenny Smith), the solitary exception that proves the rule

    Pistons (1989-90): Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars (yes, Joe D played in six All-Star games)

    Lakers (1980, 1982, 1985, 1987-88): Magic and Kareem

    Sixers (1983): Moses and Dr. J.

    Celtics (1981, 1984, 1986): Bird and McHale. (Parish was clueless in the clutch and mostly just along for the ride.)

    SuperSonics (1979): Gus Williams and Dennis Johnson

    Bullets (1978): Elvin Hayes and Wes Unseld

    Trail Blazers (1977): Bill Walton and Maurice Lucas

    How far back does this pattern go? To the beginning:

    Havlicek/Cowens; Barry/Wilkes; Frazier/Monroe/DeBusschere/Reed; Chamberlain/West; Kareem/Oscar; Russell/Hondo/the Joneses/Cousy; Pettit/Hagan; Arizin/Johnston; Schayes/Seymour; Mikan/Martin/Pollard; Risen/Davies. Even all the way back to Joe Fulks/Howie Dalmar, and Kleggie Hermsen/Buddy Jeannette.

    Now let's look at the latest champs.

    For sure, TD is a legitimate superstar. But Tony Parker is young and therefore scatterbrained; his lack of focus and intensity leads to numerous bad decisions.


    Magic Johnson's Lakers had great players throughout the lineup.
    Stephen Jackson is a defensively challenged, streaky spot-shooter who's likewise mistake-prone (there's good reason why he was cut by Phoenix, Vancouver and New Jersey; and also averaged 3.8 ppg in a pair of brief stints in the CBA). Robinson sails off into the golden sunset, resplendent and glorious, yet for the past several seasons he has been slowly sinking under the relentless onslaught of Father Time.

    Bruce Bowen couldn't dribble a basketball even if it was on a string. Malik Rose is a part-time warrior with unlimited heart and finite skills. Manu Ginobili is still trying to figure out how to say, "Hit the open man" in English. Speedy Claxton can scoot and shoot, but is essentially a No. 2 in a No. 1's body. Steve Kerr is the designated closer whose physical (and gravitational) limitations would become more evident with more playing time.

    The problem with the Spurs is (and has been) that, because of the severe limitations of his supporting cast, Duncan has to do too much -- score, rebound, block shots, pass and be the one and only dependable motor of the team's offense.

    Why then did the Spurs win the championship so handily?

    Because an injury numbed Stephon Marbury's shooting arm, Amare Stoudamire was too young to go steady, and Shawn Marion couldn't hit a clutch jumper to get into heaven.

    Because the Lakers were too fat, too selfish, too arrogant and too used up.

    Because the Mavericks were about as substantial (at least, on D) as the latest Rucker League champs and were missing Dirk Nowitzki late in the series.

    And the Nets? They lost not only because their own solitary superstar can't shoot his way out of a paper bag, but because Kenyon Martin, their erstwhile superstar-in-training, is a bogus big man. (Real players don't let anything short of a broken limb wipe them out in the Finals. Martin should have dug deep into himself and kept on digging until he found the courage to keep on trucking. Was Martin any sicker than Jordan was against Utah in the fifth game of the 1998 Finals? With all of his chest-beating and self-aggrandizing antics, K-Mart went 3-for-23 in the biggest game of his life.)


    MJ's Bulls would have easily swept aside the '03 Spurs.
    Let's face it -- the level of play in the NBA is sinking as fast as Iraq's GNP.

    So which post-24-second champs could the current Spurs defeat? The 1955 Syracuse Nationals. The 1956 Philadelphia Warriors. And the 1958 St. Louis Hawks.

    Who would sweep them in four straight? Jordan's Bulls. Magic's Lakers. The Dipper's Warriors and Lakers. The Russellian Celtics.

    Jabbar's Bucks, the Doctor's playmates and Bird's flock would beat the Spurs in five. Winners in a six-game series would be The Bad Boy Pistons, Walton and the Blazers, the Cowens-Hondo editions of the Celtics and The Old Knicks.

    The only series up for grabs would be against the '78 Bullets, '79 Sonics and '94 Rockets. The 1999 asterisked-Spurs would beat the current Spurs in seven overtimes in a seventh game.

    Two last thoughts on the 2003 championship series:

    He who chokes last, chokes worst.

    And, somebody had to win, so all hail the champs!

    Charley Rosen, a former coach in the Continental Basketball Association, has been intimately involved with basketball for the better part of five decades -- as a writer, a player, a coach and a passionate fan. Rosen's books include "More Than a Game," "The Cockroach Basketball League," "The Wizard of Odds: How Jack Molinas Almost Destroyed the Game of Basketball," "Scandals of '51: How the Gamblers Almost Killed College Basketball" and "The House of Moses All-Stars: A Novel."

    from espn.com page2
     
    #1 SamFisher, Jun 16, 2003
  2. ROXTXIA

    ROXTXIA Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2000
    Messages:
    21,432
    Likes Received:
    13,770
    You gotta admit, this was painful to watch, and you get an idea of how painful it was for non-Rockets fans to watch the 94 finals.
     
    #2 ROXTXIA, Jun 16, 2003
  3. Icehouse

    Icehouse Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2000
    Messages:
    13,670
    Likes Received:
    4,044
    Hmmm, so the Spurs win, and suddenly the league is weak as hell? Like the league (mainly the Eastern Conference champ) has been strong for Lakers 3-peat. I didn't hear this crap about lack of competition (didn't these same Nets play in the Finals LAST YEAR) or injuries (didn't Duncan get hurt in 2000, didn't Peja get hurt last yr) then, so why am I hearing it now?
     
    #3 Icehouse, Jun 16, 2003
  4. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    35,458
    Likes Received:
    15,933
    Drivel.
     
    #4 JuanValdez, Jun 16, 2003
  5. Lynus302

    Lynus302 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    6,382
    Likes Received:
    199
    I don't buy that logic one damn bit. I never have bought that logic.

    And its interesting to note that while he states the 1994 Rockets would be up for grabs vs. the 2003 Spurs, he doesn't mention the '95 Rockets in his list of who would beat them.

    Man, Duncan was amazing last night. Two blocks away from a quad-double in the title-clincher. Wow.
     
    #5 Lynus302, Jun 16, 2003
  6. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    63,284
    Likes Received:
    43,998
    I personally think that the creaking 98 bulls deserve mention as not so great champs. Look, they survived against a Jazz team that, IMO, was not as good as the 95 jazz team that featured Malone and Stockton at their athletic peak (remember in 96 playoffs, Payton made stockton look like a geriatric fool) and Jordan and Pippen were able to summon up just enough strenght to hold them off.


    The league that year was weaker than now. The superstars of today had yet to develop: No Duncan, McGrady, Bryant, Garnett on the scene as superstars yet, the Kings had yet to hit their stride, Shaq was good, but not quite great yet, and the old guard of Olajuwon, Barkley, Drexler, Ewing, Robinson was on their way out the door.

    That was a weak year, in my opinion, and the Buls didn't exactly dominate it either.
     
    #6 SamFisher, Jun 16, 2003
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2003
  7. Manny Ramirez

    Manny Ramirez The Music Man

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Messages:
    29,089
    Likes Received:
    5,911
    It's funny how a style of play that is not loved but is effective means that you are the "worst" champs ever.

    Gus Williams and Dennis Johnson on the '79 Sonics as superstars?? ROTFLMFAO...dude is really reaching on that one!
     
    #7 Manny Ramirez, Jun 16, 2003
  8. roswell raygun

    roswell raygun Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2002
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    37
    Not only would the '95 Rockets have swept this year's Spurs team, so would the '95 Magic, who the Rockets swept in the NBA finals.
    Shaq and Penny would be way too much for the Spurs to handle.
     
    #8 roswell raygun, Jun 16, 2003
  9. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    63,284
    Likes Received:
    43,998
    C'mon, you don't recall the superstar duo of "Kleggie Hermsen/Buddy Jeannette". Even Charley freaking Rosen is not old enough to remember that. THat's when they played in cages with actual peach baskets for gods sake.
     
    #9 SamFisher, Jun 16, 2003
  10. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 1999
    Messages:
    48,984
    Likes Received:
    1,446
    I haven't read anything from this guy that's been anything different.
     
    #10 Rocketman95, Jun 16, 2003
  11. rocketfan83

    rocketfan83 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2002
    Messages:
    3,520
    Likes Received:
    32
    This is so much B.S. Why does Jordan get better as time goes on? So called Nba anaylst's act like the bulls always just caked walked through the playoffs ala the 00-01 Lakers. If the Seattle Supersonics took the bulls to 6 games the year of the 72 win season, I see no reason why the Spurs couldnt do the same atleast.

    And this is in very poor taste for a journalist to compare the Spurs to the worst champs less than 24 hours after they win the championship. Maybe give some props and have class and write about where TD's game 6 ranks among the best games every played. just a thought
     
    #11 rocketfan83, Jun 16, 2003
  12. striker

    striker Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2002
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    0
    Williams and DJ had me scratching my head too. Easy to see why Rosen never rose above the CBA.

    What this bonehead doesn't seem to get, as many people don't, is that basketball courts are divided into two halves, offense and defense. The Spurs make their mark on the defensive half and when you put five of them on the court their team D holds up to some of the best. Inexperienced as they are, their O will get much better.
     
    #12 striker, Jun 16, 2003
  13. Manny Ramirez

    Manny Ramirez The Music Man

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Messages:
    29,089
    Likes Received:
    5,911
    The funny thing about the Dennis Johnson and Gus Williams thing is it is almost like Rosen threw that one in there hoping to slip it by, but compare those two with the rest of his list:

    Lakers (2000-2002): Shaq and Kobe. - 2 players that will be in the next greatest 50 list

    Spurs (1999): Tim Duncan, along with David Robinson still in his prime. - 1 player that is in the top 50 (even if it is debateable) and another that will be in the next greatest 50 list


    Bulls (1991-1993,1996-1998): MJ and Scottie Pippen - two of the top 50 even if Quitten is debateable

    Rockets (1995) Hakeem Olajuwon and Clyde Drexler - two of the top 50

    Rockets (1994): Olajuwon and a cast of marginalia (Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell and Kenny Smith), the solitary exception that proves the rule - one of the top 50

    Pistons (1989-90): Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars (yes, Joe D played in six All-Star games) - one of the top 50 and another that came close

    Lakers (1980, 1982, 1985, 1987-88): Magic and Kareem - two of the top 50

    Sixers (1983): Moses and Dr. J. - two of the top 50

    Celtics (1981, 1984, 1986): Bird and McHale. (Parish was clueless in the clutch and mostly just along for the ride.) - actually 3 of the top 50, dumbass Rosen

    SuperSonics (1979): Gus Williams and Dennis Johnson - huh? :confused:

    Bullets (1978): Elvin Hayes and Wes Unseld - two of the top 50

    Trail Blazers (1977): Bill Walton and Maurice Lucas - one of the top 50 (although debateable with all his injuries) and one tough mutha

    In everything I have ever read about that Sonics team that won in '79, it was how they were bland and had no superstars and a bunch of role players with some steady stars. Reminds me of that old Sesame Street thing, "one of these kids is doing his own thing, can you tell me which one?"
     
    #13 Manny Ramirez, Jun 16, 2003
  14. ragingFire

    ragingFire Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2003
    Messages:
    1,671
    Likes Received:
    0
    Charley Rosen makes no sense whatsoever!

    So what if all the championship teams have a bunch of superstars? Wouldn't it be a bigger accomplishment if a team of 12 scrubs win the championship?

    What does it matter if Duncan has to score a hundred points for the Spurs to win?

    Who cares if the Spurs won because something happened to the other teams? Isn't it always true that one team wins because the other team fails in some aspects?

    What if the Spurs-Nets scored very few points?
    A game that ends with the score 120-118 does not prove that those teams are superior. It only shows that those guys play no defense.
     
    #14 ragingFire, Jun 16, 2003
  15. esse

    esse Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2003
    Messages:
    523
    Likes Received:
    0
    Spurs won and its in the history books...I'm good with that.:)
     
    #15 esse, Jun 16, 2003
  16. PhiSlammaJamma

    PhiSlammaJamma Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 1999
    Messages:
    30,167
    Likes Received:
    8,174
    There are worse things you could be called than the worst champions or the worst dream team or the worst MVP. You have to take that as a compliment and realize that you actually accomplished something. It's kinda like your girlfriend saying that you have a smaller weiner than her last boyfriend, but it fits better. It's backhanded and all. But it's a compliment. And no, my girlfriend has never told me that, yet :)
     
    #16 PhiSlammaJamma, Jun 16, 2003
  17. MrSpur

    MrSpur Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2000
    Messages:
    729
    Likes Received:
    1
    Spurs knocked off the 3 time defending champs and finished them on their home court in 6. Not one series in this playoffs went to 7 games. In the title clinching game Tim Duncan was 2 blocks shy of the 5th quadruple double in NBA history.

    If the Spurs are 'weak champs' wtf does that make the Lakers?
     
    #17 MrSpur, Jun 16, 2003
  18. HillBoy

    HillBoy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    2,635
    Boy, it sure didn't take long for all of the NBA "purists" to start kicking dirt on the Spurs' title. They failed to notice that the level of play in the entire league has been in decline for some time now. Today's NBA is chocked full of athletic specimens that can run like deer and leap right out of the gym but have no freakin' idea how to play basketball.

    You want a better level of play? Get better players into this league.
     
    #18 HillBoy, Jun 16, 2003
  19. DavidS

    DavidS Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2000
    Messages:
    8,605
    Likes Received:
    0

    Add one more. James Worthy, 1st pick overall, 1982.

    Essential in the last three championships.
     
    #19 DavidS, Jun 17, 2003
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2003
  20. DavidS

    DavidS Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2000
    Messages:
    8,605
    Likes Received:
    0
    You could say that TD had to do too much this year. But you could also say that he has actually learned to be patient. In 1999 he had more veterants around him. This year, he had inexperienced players.

    In spite of that he's managed to dominate in different ways. I actually like this core group better than the 99 team. Although, a shooting guard like Sean Elliott is sorely missed.

    In 1999, Duncan averaged 27.4 points, 14.0 rebounds, 2.2 blocks, and 2.4 assists for the Finals.

    This years Finals, 24ppg, 17rpg, 5.33 bpg, 5.3 apg. Seems as though TD knew the only way to beat a defense minded Nets team was to meet them with greater defense. And in the end, their better offense carried them the rest of the way.

    Over the last few years, TD's assists, rebouding and overall defense has improved from 1999. TD is just better. And his young core group of players will improve as well.

    Scary team. I hope they don't get Kidd.
    :(
     
    #20 DavidS, Jun 17, 2003
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2003
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 1 of 2

Share This Page