Very cute. I'll just sit and hold my breath waiting for you to apologize for assuming that I didn't talk to my wife's family (includsing the members who spend part of the year living on a kabutz outside of Jerusalem) before talking about this. (turning blue)
First of all the vast majority of the population in Jordan is Palestinian. Secondly it's false that they have fewer rights in Jordan. In Jordan right next to many Palestinian areas there are thriving Palestinian business and corporations. This is because they are allowed to actually build those businesses there. A military ordinance in Israel orders any Palestinian business that competes economically with an Israeli one to be destroyed. Thirdly I'm as opposed as a person can be to terrorist suicide bombings, but by the same token I don't believe that the Palestinians should cooperate with an oppressive unjust policy of Israels. Peaceful demonstration such as the non-violent movements by MLK and Ghandi never used cooperation as a tactic. In fact it was MLK who said something to the effect that any law that is unjust is no law at all. The Palestinians in some cases have already started using civil disobedience, and hopefully they will continue, and never cooperate with Apartheid like, and discriminatory policies.
When did I say that all Palestinians are terrorists? My boss at work is a Palestinian christian. I have talked with her extensively about the conflict and we both agree to disagree and leave it at that. I would like to know your wife's opinion. The reason Israel was militarized right away is because it was attacked right away(get an encyclopedia, see: Israeli Independence). Israel as we know it today did not exist until 1948...get a clue. Wow, you must be really freaking smart. Let me guess, an IQ of 200! All hail Refman, smartest man alive. Let me clear it up for you in more simple terms. OLD PALESTINE WAS THE COMBINATION OF TODAY'S ISRAEL AND JORDAN. One more thing about the recent history of Israel/Palestine(whatever you want to call it). Before 1900, the land was mostly desert with a few small cities. Now its fertile, has universities, museums, big corporations.... I wonder why.
So it's come to this. You run out of arguments and assail my intelligence. OK...let's go there. You are so blinded by religious affiliation that you can't see the situation for what it is. Great...you do that...let the rest of us deal with solving the problem. I developed my opinion AFTER discussing these things ad neaseum over the course of our relationship. What does my wife's opinion have to do with this? Can only a Jew understand? Are the rest of us just too base to understand? Have we not suffered enough the way that you have? Give me a break. First off...you've left 48 years unaccounted for. But more importantly than that...you rationalize displacing thousands and making them second class people in the name of progress? That's warped. If that is what you really think, then I gave you way too much credit. If that is REALLY what you think, then you aren't blinded by religion...at that point you'd just be a sociopath. Oh really? Well then since you are so much smarter than I...I'd like tothank you for proving my point. Since today's Israel is part of old Palestine...then you have just admitted that the Israelis TOOK the land (read: displaced thousands because they felt like it). Well thank you for the history lesson. I know that. Hmmm...if you or anybody else came in and told me that I couldn't live in my home anymore because you wanted to make a new country out of it then you better come armed. Of course Israel was attacked in 1948...it's called people defending their homes against invasion. Wake up...shake yourself..take off the blinders and realize that Israel isn't entirely in the right.
Israel WON THE FRICKEN WAR, it is THEIR FRICKEN COUNTRY !!!! If the Palastinians want to live there they need to abide by the WINNING SIDES RULES !!!! Does anyone refute that the Palastinians would already have a state if they would have accepted any of the MANY reasonable deals offered to them? Arafat is lining his own pockets and is making MILLIONS by stealing from his own people, their leaders are corrupt and have no real desire to see this end, less it stops their cash flow. DaDakota
Having your country split into 3 separate parts with another country between them? Is that reasonable? I'd hate to have to drive through Mexico to get to Missouri from Texas. Blah blah blah blah blah....ever hear of the Geneva Convention? Here's a clue...Israel is violating it by occupying the land.
Refman, The geneva convention is a set of guidelines for war, it is not a CURE all for foreign policy, and it is not recognized by everyone. It is their country, they make the laws and rules, and if the Palastinians don't like it they are free to leave. I guess next you will be saying we should give America back to the Indians etc...etc.... By the way, not all of the proposals had the country split in 3, but HELL, they have NO COUNTRY NOW...ZERO NADA...ZIP....Israel is being extremely generous to EVEN offer them anything. There has been no official Palastinian state, and there will NEVER be one until they get some reasonable people in there as leaders. If you are bargaining from a position of weakness, you don't look a gift horse in the mouth. All the PLO/Hamas is doing is causing more Palastinians to die and to harden Israel's resolve against them. There is NO way for the Palastinans to win...they can not compete with Israel and will only succeed in getting more Palastinians killed, but they don't seem to mind as long as Arafat and gang are getting rich on donations. DD
Not recognized by everyone...just everyone who belongs to the UN...that includes Israel. It is also a set of rules (not guidelines...RULES) that govern how the losing side is treated after the war. Oh the take your ball and go home theory...nice to sit in your Barcolounger and talk about...but not practical in this little place I call reality. I assure you that Israel isn't doing this out of some type of benevolent revelation. They have done so because they realize they are starting to lose favor with the rest of the world upon whom they so heavily rely. Now we're cookin'. We need leaders on BOTH sides that are a LOT less hawkish. Agreed. And Israels responses have hardened resolve on the other side. That's how the current tit-for-tat started. I'd really rather not test that theory. It wouldn't end well for anybody. I never said that the Hamas leadership wasn't corrupt. I detest Hamas and the PLO and al-Queda...and any other radical group you can think of. All I'm saying is that both sides are MORALLY WRONG. BTW...the Palestinians have AGAIN pledged to stop bombings if the Israelis move back to 1967 borders. This is not the first time it has been offered. The Israelis have moved out and everything was cool for a while...then they decided to slowly creep back in...and then all hell breaks loose. The truth is that the Israelis are starting to come under criticism from every Western country...including the US. When the President mentions that Israel needs to show restraint that is as direct as it will get from our government. We'll never outwardly criticize Israel because they are our ally in the UN. I understand that and am fine with it. Everybody over there needs a fair shake. Israel took over the territory and now the Palestinians aren't allowed to have businesses etc. Their homes were and are still being taken from them. It sounds a lot like the Northern Ireland problem to me...but I'll bet you didn't have a problem with that either.
Economic problems in Israel will cause more pressure on the Israeli leadership than you may think. Scheduled Elections in Israel are for fall 2003 and it is quite possible that they will happen in sooner Spring 2003 with January 2003 a longshot. Sharon is likely to be replaced as the leader of Israel because of being ineffective. Bibi is seen as a strong contender to replace Sharon. Could you define/clarify <i>Palestinians</i>? Is that the PLO or inclusive of PLO, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP etc?
The groups you listed are radical splinter groups of Palestinians. It is by no means represents all of the Palestinians. Palestinians are the people who resided on the land prior to the settlement and formation of the state of Israel.
........but since they are the groups doing the bombings, shouldn't their participation in the pledge to stop doing it in Israel proper be part of the deal?
My understanding is that these groups have pledged to stop the bombings in the areas of Israel according to the 1967 borders if the Israelis will withdraw from the land outside those borders. It is their attempt at a sign of good faith for negotiations. Are they serious about it? I don't know but it sure is worth a try.
The latest report I could find has the offer from the Palestinians falling apart. <A HREF="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=198112&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0">PA: Talks with Hamas on end to attacks in Israel fail</A> <i>Negotiations between the Palestinian Authority and the radical Islamic organization Hamas on an end to terror attacks inside Israel have failed, according to senior PA Minister Nabil Sha'ath. "To our regret, Hamas thwarted every plan," Sha'ath said in an interview to the Palestinian radio station the Voice of Palestine, Thursday. Sha'ath added that contacts between the PA and Hamas in recent days had failed to produce any result in the creation of a national unity government that would include all of the Palestinian groups. Ha'aretz reported Wednesday that one day earlier Hamas had implicitly rejected the draft of a political manifesto drawn up by representatives of all the Palestinian organizations and stipulating the foundation of a Palestinian state in the territories captured by Israel in 1967 as the national aim of the Palestinians. Hamas representatives clarified that the organization was firm in its position that the Palestinian people had a right to all of its motherland - namely from the Jordan River to the sea. Spokesmen for Hamas and Islamic Jihad said they would not cease attacks inside Israel, even though the draft document does not specifically state the measures the Palestinians should take to achieve their aims. However, as the draft does suggest a united Palestinian leadership - comprised of PLO factions and the Islamic movements - and the adoption of internal reforms, a proposal that implicitly criticizes Arafat's leadership, Hamas has refrained from rejecting it outright. </i>
Well that is disappointing...but I think there can be a solution. the rest of the Palestinians can move forward with the negotiations for statehood. Part of their initial set of laws can be an outright prohibition on the planning or funding of terror strikes within Israel. Violation of that law should have stiff penalties. This can be done fairly...it must be done carefully and methodically. IMHO...once there is a Palestinian state, Hamas will quickly realize that tolerance for their violence will dissapate quickly even amongst their own people. One reason they don't want there to be successful negotiations is that once they have a state, Hamas will lose its reason for existance.
Refman, For the sake of this discussion........the Palestinians get their state, but Hamas and other radical groups continue the bombings in Israel proper. Should Israel be allowed to send military force into the Palestinian state to arrest or <i>get</i> the infrastructure of the bombers? Should Israel be forced to go through a legal process and wait for the Palestinian government to arrest and extradite the bomber's infrastructure to Israel for legal prosecution? What if the Palestinian government is reluctant and fails to round up the radicals who continue the bombings?
At that point I think the Palestinian government would be pretty diligent about it. They would have way too much to lose at that point. Once you have gone from oppression and no economy to autonomy and the birth of an economy for your people...you don't want to do anything to jeopardize it. Should the government not be diligent then the UN can send in peacekeepers like they do everywhere else there is unrest.
If they would have too much to lose, does that mean that Israel would be allowed & justified in sending military force across the border to attack the bombing infrastructure inside the Palestinian state? If Israeli reprisal is not allowed (across the border), what exactly do the Palestinians have seriously at risk?
UN economic sanctions during a period of trying to build an economy from scratch is never a good thing. They would be risking their entire newly found economy. However, I would be much more likely to be ok with an Israeli response provided: 1) It was targeted solely at getting to the bombing infrastructure and not at civillians. 2) The Palestinian government was given the opportunity to act on its own first. I think that is a fair system.
I was just curious about something... I make it a rule to stay out of threads about religion and the conflict in the Middle East, but I find it fascinating reading when it doesn't get too heated and incoherent. Anyway, I visited Jerusalem and the West Bank in 1965, when it was part of the Kingdom of Jordan (as a tourist). I was wondering what happened to the Bedouin people who lived there (and still do, as a minority now) over the last hundred years or so. Were they always a minority in the area? What happened to their claim to the area? I thought they had lived there for centuries. I got that impression from reading "Seven Pillars Of Wisdom", by Lawrence, at any rate. Any thoughts?
From the few things I can find to read online...the Bedouin people are nomadic. Their movement has most likely been throughout the land we have been talking about. But it seems that they are the minority, and I wonder if they even aspire to rule. Generally nomadic people aren't in the power grab due to the fact that they move around so much. But I don't know if the Bedouin seek power specifically. But their rights should be taken into consideration under any regime that assumes power over a Palestinian state.
