1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

The costliest engineering mistake in american history

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, Dec 2, 2005.

  1. basso

    basso Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    29,706
    Likes Received:
    6,396
    I'm sure this is somehow Bush/Cheney/Haliburton's fault, or maybe the ACE just doesn't like black people...

    http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/frontpage/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1133336859287360.xml

    --
    17th Street Canal levee was doomed
    Report blames corps: Soil could never hold
    Wednesday, November 30, 2005
    By Bob Marshall
    Staff writer

    The floodwall on the 17th Street Canal levee was destined to fail long before it reached its maximum design load of 14 feet of water because the Army Corps of Engineers underestimated the weak soil layers 10 to 25 feet below the levee, the state's forensic levee investigation team concluded in a report to be released this week.

    That miscalculation was so obvious and fundamental, investigators said, they "could not fathom" how the design team of engineers from the corps, local firm Eustis Engineering and the national firm Modjeski and Masters could have missed what is being termed the costliest engineering mistake in American history.

    The failure of the wall and other breaches in the city's levee system flooded much of New Orleans when Hurricane Katrina slammed ashore Aug. 29, prompting investigations that have raised questions about the basic design and construction of the floodwalls.

    "It's simply beyond me," said Billy Prochaska, a consulting engineer in the forensic group known as Team Louisiana. "This wasn't a complicated problem. This is something the corps, Eustis, and Modjeski and Masters do all the time. Yet everyone missed it -- everyone from the local offices all the way up to Washington."

    Team Louisiana, which consists of six LSU professors and three independent engineers, reached its conclusions by plugging soil strength data available to the corps into the engineering equations used to determine whether a wall is strong enough to withstand the force of rising water caused by a hurricane.

    "Using the data we have available from the corps, we did our own calculations on how much water that design could take in these soils before failure," said LSU professor Ivor van Heerden, a team member. "Our research shows it would fail at water levels between 11 and 12 feet -- which is just what happened" in Katrina.

    Not deep enough

    Several high-level academic and professional investigations have found that the sheet piling used in the design to support the floodwalls was too short for the 18.5-foot depth of the canal. In addition to holding up the concrete "cap" on the walls, the sheet piling is supposed to serve as a barrier preventing the migration of water from the canal through the porous soils to the land side of the levee, an event that rapidly weakens the soils supporting a wall and can cause it to shift substantially.

    The corps has long claimed the sheet piling was driven to 17.5 feet deep, but Team Louisiana recently used sophisticated ground sonar to prove it was only 10 feet deep.

    Van Heerden said Team Louisiana's latest calculations prove investigators' claims that a depth of 17 feet would have made little difference. He said the team ran the calculations for sheet piles at 17 feet and 16 feet deep, and the wall still would have failed at a load of 11 to 12 feet of water.

    Investigators have been puzzled by the corps' design since it was made public in news reports. They said it was obvious the weak soils in the former swampland upon which the canal and levee were built clearly called for sheet piles driven much deeper than the canal bottom. It was not a challenging engineering problem, investigators said.

    Prochaska said a rule of thumb is that the length of sheet piling below a canal bottom should be two to three times longer than the length extending above the canal bottom.

    "That's if you have uniform soils, and we certainly don't have that in the New Orleans area," he said. "It kind of boggles the mind that they missed this, because it's so basic, and there were so many qualified engineers working on this."

    Corps approved design

    According to records, Eustis Engineering provided the detailed analyses of the ability of soils along the path of the levee to withstand water pressure once the wall was built on top. The information was provided to Modjeski and Masters, the contractor that designed the wall for the corps. If the project followed normal procedures, the engineers with those firms were using design criteria spelled out in various corps handbooks. "You use the corps cookbook, and you usually have to work it out using corps (computer) programs," Prochaska said.

    Private-sector engineering work must be reviewed by corps personnel in relevant sections. In this case, legal documents show, the work was reviewed by engineers in the corps' geotechnical and structural engineering branches, as well as the flood control structures section. It was approved and accepted by the district's chief engineer at the time, Chester Ashley, according to the documents.

    Robert Bea, a University of California, Berkeley professor who led a National Science Foundation investigation of the levee failures, said the mistakes made by the engineers on the project were hard to accept because the project was so "straightforward."

    "It's hard to understand, because it seemed so simple, and because the failure has become so large," Bea said.

    "This is the largest civil engineering disaster in the history of the United States. Nothing has come close to the $300 billion in damages and half-million people out of their homes and the lives lost," he said. "Nothing this big has ever happened before in civil engineering."
     
  2. underoverup

    underoverup Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2003
    Messages:
    3,208
    Likes Received:
    75
    I'm sure that's not the only levee around NO that is poorly constructed. :(
     
  3. Surfguy

    Surfguy Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 1999
    Messages:
    23,184
    Likes Received:
    11,522
    Sounds like there was some sort of cover-up going on and noone wanted to fix it after it was already put in. I don't buy the fact that they just didn't have the right data or miscalculated. I think they just did a half-ass job.

    Are we supposed to accept the fact that all these people are just stupid idiots? BS.
     
  4. Saint Louis

    Saint Louis Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 1999
    Messages:
    4,260
    Likes Received:
    0
    Would this qualify as an oops?
     
  5. wouldabeen23

    wouldabeen23 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2002
    Messages:
    2,026
    Likes Received:
    270

    Yeah, this one has nothing to do with partisan politics--what an F-up
     
  6. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    11,064
    Likes Received:
    8
    I doubt it was a conspiracy or a deliberate coverup. The sad thing is that stuff like this happens on government projects. I recently worked on rennovating a state building that wasn't built up to code and is now causing all sorts of problems with our renovation. The thing that is really sucks about it is that the code violations are very obvious in the design drawings yet it was still OK'd.

    The thing that I find happens is that on big government projects the bureacracy gets so thick that its hard to keep track of who has responsibility over what so people who do the certification often don't bother checking the project or doing their own calculations because they figure someone else has already done it.
     
  7. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2005
    Messages:
    21,310
    Likes Received:
    11,755
    its the radical islamists fault..
     
  8. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    48,883
    Likes Received:
    17,483
    Saddam Hussein was cozy with those engineers, and gave them sanctuary.
     
  9. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 1999
    Messages:
    73,559
    Likes Received:
    19,850
    They live in a bowl. Seriously. They knew this was coming. They're under water in every direction. They literally have to pump water out of their city because it won't drain out naturally. I had been reading for years about how this doomsday scenario was inevitable. We were even having a discussion about it about 2 months before it happened in our office...i distinctly remember commenting on how "they say it will likely happen within our lifetimes" and how crazy that was. then it did. not a pat on my back...not psychic..not dionne warwick. again...we had been reading about this as an inevitable event for years. the crisis was described word for word by the picayune years before it happened. the chronicle had a big piece on a sunday once about how new orleans would one day be no more. now everyone acts surprised and they want to cast blame. honestly...the people whom i've met from NOLA...they aren't surprised at all. it's a reality they knew was coming.
     
  10. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2001
    Messages:
    15,093
    Likes Received:
    2,129
    I'd say the Union Carbide incident in Bhopal, India was a bigger civil engineering disaster, which should be considered part of American history since it involves an American company. The flooding pales in comparison.
     
  11. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 1999
    Messages:
    61,639
    Likes Received:
    29,051

    government bids at work

    Rocket River
     
  12. calurker

    calurker Contributing Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2002
    Messages:
    1,383
    Likes Received:
    446
    There's nothing to debate here. It's called embezzlement, bribe, kickback, or some combination of all 3. The more debatable topic is if they ever get to the bottom of all this, what kind of sentence would the prime culprits merit? Death? Life in jail? (aside from the obvious disgorgement and punitive fines).
     
  13. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2005
    Messages:
    21,310
    Likes Received:
    11,755
    I wonder what the costliest military mistake in american history is..
     
  14. lpbman

    lpbman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2001
    Messages:
    4,157
    Likes Received:
    691
    Vietnam by a mile. Not only that, Robert McNamara was more of a boob and Rummy and LBJ did more harm on the ground than Bush has in Iraq.

    LBJ once said "They can't even bomb an outhouse without my approval" and micromanaged that war like a kid playing GI Joe's
    b*stard
     
  15. arkoe

    arkoe (ง'̀-'́)ง

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2001
    Messages:
    10,372
    Likes Received:
    1,589
    Despite the poor judgement/construction of this one particular levee, as MadMax mentioned, this was bound to happen. New Orleans has known this was a possibility for a very long time. Everyone knew that the levees were only prepared to withstand a Category 3. Unfortunately nothing was done to fix the problem before the big one hit.
     
  16. Saint Louis

    Saint Louis Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 1999
    Messages:
    4,260
    Likes Received:
    0
    New Orleans is a short term city. With the rate that Louisiana is losing acres of land to the sea, the coastline is going to pass New Orleans in the next 100 years. Waste of money, how about rebuilding most of it. The 9th Ward and Lakeview should be abandoned now. Same with all of St. Berhnard Parish.

    link
     
  17. mc mark

    mc mark Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 1999
    Messages:
    26,195
    Likes Received:
    468
    Well good For Jr.

    ----------------------
    White House unveils $3 bln plan for New Orleans levees

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The White House announced on Thursday it had agreed to a $3.1 billion plan to strengthen the New Orleans levees to withstand a major storm.

    "The levee system will be better and stronger than it ever has been in the history of New Orleans," said Donald Powell, the Bush administration's point person for the reconstruction of the Gulf Coast area devastated by Hurricane Katrina.

    Mayor Ray Nagin, who is struggling to persuade displaced residents to return to the shattered city, said at the White House news conference: "This action says ''Come home to New Orleans''."

    Officials said the money would come from previously proposed funding requests submitted to Congress.

    Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco and others have been pressing for federal assistance for the levees, saying the city's reconstruction was doubtful if they were not rebuilt.

    http://today.reuters.com/news/newsA...1_SIB557391_RTRUKOC_0_US-HURRICANE-LEVEES.xml

    more info here

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aeHYt1a59QYM&refer=us
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now