[for basso]Anti-Gay Church Protests at GI Funerals

Isn't Basso gay?

I don't visit the D&D much but isn't he a die hard Republican on almost every issue except homosexuality?

 

And is, therefore, gay. LOL!!!

You're joking, right?

 

so is Basso = Karl Rove

 

No, Im not.

Why would a right wing ultra conservative on almost every issue, social or otherwise, be so adamant to defend homosexuality.

I may be wrong but I doubt it - not that it matters. Just interesting.

 

Don't you mean "Not that there's anything wrong with that.."

 

Oh, okay, sorry if it seems like I jumped on you on that one. That's actually a good point. Basso's an opera singer, (guess what voice type he is from his handle) as am I, and although it's very rare for a performing artist to be so conservative, it happens. In this field, you work with a lot of gay guys- like over half the dudes I work with are gay. I assume that through meeting and working with so many, basso has learned homosexuality is not inherently evil or wrong. But perhaps I assume too much; maybe he learned as much before or after. I know that this was the case for me, since I used to be very homophobic back when I was a teenager, but learned better later on.

basso is interesting- not too long ago, maybe pre-war, he would occasionally post stuff that would be a little critical of someone in the administration. He made a point of being more moderate, at least here on the BBS. It seems like these days he feels he needs to balance out the anti-Bush crowd in the BBS and has now become a major target. I think he's okay with gay marriage, but the Plame incident, the 'liberal' media, and Iraq war is something he will always put up a fight about.

Am I on track here?

 

what makes you think i'm a die hard conservative on every issue? if you've paid a scintilla of attention to my posts here you'd know i'm pretty much all over the map. i support gay marriage, but i'm against abortion. i favor gun control, but i support the death penalty. i suppose you've taken my support of the war in iraq, and the larger WOT, as evidence of "ultra conservatism." i made this point during the election, but it's worth repeating: there are many, many, many people like me who are socially "liberal" (at least when it comes to sex and relationships) but for whom national security is perhaps the issue of greatest importance. if the democrats had anyone who could project even a modicum of seriousness about this topic, they'd be running the country. until they do, they won't.

 

so you're absolutely sure that considering the money that has been spent (300B), the lives lost (1800), the division of the country (+50% against), and the enemies and terrorists created, the war on Iraq has made America stronger and safer?

 

no i'm not, at least not yet, but the issues you cite are reasons for fighting the war differently, or finishing the job, not reasons for not fighting in the first place.

 

Let's get this thread back on the right track: The Gay Track

 

did someone say GAY TREK?

 

i always thought captain janeway had some stuff goin' on...

 

googled "Diana Troi Lesbian" and found this:

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache...c.doc+diana+troi+lesbian&hl=en&client=firefox

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations:

Sexual Diversity in Star Trek

Homosexuality in Star Trek is one of the more hotly debated issues among fans and viewers of the series. The conspicuous lack of gay characters has troubled many viewers who feel that the philosophy of Star Trek, of a positive inclusive vision of the future, should include sexual diversity. And the Vulcan philosophy of IDIC (loosely translated as Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations) seems to suggest that homosexuality would be welcomed and accepted in the 23rd century. The whole philosophy of the show is about diversity and acceptance and tolerance for other races and other ways of thinking. Why should this not extend to sexual orientation?

There have been several episodes that have touched directly or indirectly on homosexual themes. Gender-switching was touched upon in ?Turnabout Intruder,? where the vengeful Janice Lester switches minds with Captain Kirk. It raises the question of whether a relationship between the Kirk body with Lester?s mind with a women would be a heterosexual or homosexual one. Fortunately for our brains, the producers didn?t write in any sexual relationships into that episode.

The first real episode to deal with the issue of homosexuality, however, was the Host. In this episode, the alien Trill Ambassador Odan and Dr. Crusher fall in love. Ambassador Odan is on the Enterprise to mediate a dispute between two moons that have been at war for generations. His own father resolved a similar dispute 40 years ago. He insists on taking a shuttle rather than the transporter and is terminally injured. It is then revealed that he is a symbioant. The symbioant (funny creature that lives inside him) is implanted in Riker in order to complete the peace negotiations and resolve the dispute. The new trill host then arrives.

She is female. Dr. Crusher is unable to deal with this. She rationalizes her beliefs by stating that: ?We are not accustomed to these kind of changes? I can?t live with that kind of uncertainty.? Latent homophobia or just natural resistance to change? Who knows? Roberts states that ?The literal transfer into a female body proves too much for her [Beverly?s] homophobic prejudice? (115). But she does redeem herself, at least partially, with her next comment that seems to apply to all homosexual relationships and to our own society at large??Perhaps someday our ability to love won?t be so limited.? And she reaffirms her love for Odan, even in his? her? present form with her words: ?Odan, I do love you. Please remember that.?

The Outcast is an episode that deals with the androgynous J?Naii, who do not have gender. The episode on the surface deals with gender and gender identity. It starts off by dealing with the differences between genders.

Soren, a J?Naii who is working with Riker, asks him what the difference between males and females are. He replies that boys are ?snips and snails and puppy dog tails? and girls are ?sugar and spice and everything nice.? When she seems confused, he adds that men have a stronger upper body, different sexual organs, and can?t bear young. Soren asks Dr. Crusher what it?s like to be a woman and observes that women seem to ?have longer hair, arrange it more elaborately, and put color on their bodies.? Crusher states that ?Men want to be attractive too? They want to pretend that they aren?t doing anything to attract the woman even when its the most important thing on their mind.? She states that women used to be considered weak and inferior in the past but that this hasn?t been true for hundreds of years.

Later, at a poker game, Troi deals out a game with 3 wild-cards. Worf remarks that it is ?a woman?s game.? When they question him on it, he argues that ?All those wild cards? They support a weak hand. A man?s game has no wild cards.? Crusher is disgusted and states that she had told Soren that women were not considered inferior and that perhaps she was wrong. Worf then states that he finds the J?naii unsettling.

This exploration of gender issues really touches on the ambiguity we have with gender roles and the difference between the genders in this modern era of ?equal rights? and ?gender equality.?

What the ?Outcast? though is clearly making an analogy and comparison to, however, is sexuality and specifically homosexuality and gay rights. Even the producer and writer of the episode, Jeri Taylor, states that ??The Outcast,? though, is a gay rights story. It absolutely, specifically and outspokenly dealt with gay issues.? (Tulloch and Jenkins 255, cited in Roberts 117)

Worf?s reaction to the J?naii shows his prejudice towards those who are different. Soren reveals her secret?that she is a female?to Riker, whom she has fallen in love with. This is sort of like the homosexual ?coming out? process. She says, ?I?d like to tell you something? Something that?s not easy to say? I?m taking a terrible risk telling you that. It means revealing something to you?something that if it was known on my planet would be very dangerous for me.? Putting oneself at risk by revealing their true identity and not knowing how they will react is something many self-identified gay and lesbian people face when ?coming out.?

Soren goes on to say to Riker that ?Occasionally, among my people, there are a few who are born different? But in front of Krite and the others, I must be careful not to reveal myself? Those of us who have these urges lead secret and guarded lives?we seek each other out, always hiding, always terrified of being discovered.? This is clearly intended to be similar to the genetic concept of gays, the concept of a closeted gay, and the separate gay community.

The concept of the ?psychotectic therapy? is an analogy to the reparative therapy advocated by conservative religious organizations in the United States. Also, the ?I?ve known I was different all my life, but I did not know how or why until I was older? echoes many gay people?s feelings about how they always felt different all their life. And the harassment by the children of the child with gender is quite similar to the discrimination and harassment that gay people face daily.

Soren?s speech to the court also mirrors the thoughts and words of many gays. ?It is not unnatural. I am not sick because I feel this way. I do not need to be helped. I do not need to be cured. What I need and what all those who are like me need?is your understanding and your compassion.? If only people would apply this to their lives and treat those who are different with understanding and compassion. ?We talk and laugh? we complain about work and we wonder about growing old. We talk about our families and we worry about the future. And we cry with each other when things seem hopeless. All of the loving things that you do with each other.?THAT IS WHAT WE DO.? People who are different because of gender, race, sexual orientation, age, etc? are still all human beings with feelings, hopes, and dreams. Despite our differences, we are all quite similar. How can we say that some are inferior to others and should be suppressed?

?And for that?we are called misfits and deviants and criminals? ? What makes you think you can dictate how people love each other?? What makes us think so indeed. Star Trek again addresses the issue, while using alien races to create a parallel and to project our social situations and dilemmas upon alien races. To again quote Doctor Crusher, ?Perhaps some day our ability to love won?t be so limited.?

According to Roberts, ?By defamiliarizing the site? the viewer can attain some distance and perspective on our culture?s homophobia. When alien characters are presented sympathetically, as they are in both ?The Host? and ?The Outcast,? even a homophobe may find him or herself rooting for a metaphorically homosexual character. (109).

There have also been deep-space nine episodes that deal with homosexuality. The mirror universe Kira and possibly Garak are bisexual. There is an episode (DS9: Rejoined) where a former lover of Dax, a Trill (strange how homosexuality and Trills seem to go together?) comes back and now they are both women and they share a kiss and reminisce about the past. Once again, an alien race is used to challenge our human prejudices and stereotypes.

It is clear that Gene Roddenberry had intended to at some point introduce homosexual characters into Star Trek: The Next Generation. In Roddenberry: The Last Conversation, the following is written:

"?I?m sorry I [Gene Roddenberry] never had a homosexual relationship,? he remarks pensively, out of the blue, one afternoon, ?because I know that there must be many joys and pleasures and degrees of closeness in those relationships. I think that I have in a way been cursed by having picked my particular time period and background and so on, because I have no doubt that I am capable of homosexualism? as a matter of fact, remind me, I?m in the midst of making a decision about homosexuality?male and female?and how we are going to treat it on Star Trek, the lovely ways in which we will treat it?without defying present average conditions" (Fern 168-169).

An article from the Los Angeles Times, October 30, 1991, states that "This season it [Star Trek], will again challenge viewers to boldly go where they?ve never gone before. This season gays and lesbians will appear unobtrusively aboard the Enterprise in the 24th century." Apparently after Gene Roddenberry?s death, the studio and producers backpedaled on this promise and refused to include regular gay characters. Stein states that: ?The powers-that-be who control the Star Trek universe are extremely protective of their product and despite some very tentative occasional explorations of issues involving sexual orientation, they clearly wish to avoid anything that could be construed as male homosexuality in their major characters. ?How to Submit Creative Material?, a rule sheet for potential authors of Star Trek novels, explicitly states ?We are not interested in books that suggest anything other than friendship between Kirk and Spock or any other crewmembers??. Joyrich in ?Feminist? 68states that ?the absence of a major gay or lesbian character disturbingly suggests that even in the twenty-fourth century, infinite diversity in infinite combinations does not include sexual diversity? (cited in Roberts, 109).

The actor who plays Captain Picard, Patrick Steward, feels that gay characters should be included in the Next Generation movies: "?It would be very appropriate, ? Stewart says, if the upcoming Next Generation movies made it their business to have gay characters? It would be very appropriate right now if the issue of an alternative sexuality could find a place in it" (Advocate, 68-72).

Many fans, though, have taken the matter into their own hands. Tired of waiting, they have created erotic fiction involving homosexual relationships. The most common form of this is slash fiction, named as such because of the slash between the characters? names (Kirk/Spock), (Picard/Q), (Data/Geordi), (Troi/Crusher), (Bashir/Garak), and (Paris/Kim). Slash fiction is erotic fiction written involving two same-sex characters in a sexual relationship of some sort. The fans pick up on clues and erotic tension between characters and incorporate it into their fan fiction. Jenkins states in Textual Poaching that ?For these fans, the text?s silences about characters? sexuality or motives can be filled with homosexual desire, since, after all, in our society, such desire must often go unspoken (Tulloch and Jenkins 259). He goes on to state that ?In refusing to demarcate a certain denotative space for homosexuality within the text, they left Star Trek open to wholesale reclamation?. Soon, all of the characters are potentially queer?at least on the level of connotation? (261, rpt in Roberts 124)

One frequently explored relationship is the potential one between Kirk and Spock. Given the closeness of their friendship, it is only ?logical? than fans extrapolate from this a homosexual relationship. Even Edith Keller, in the City on the Edge of Forever episode, notes the closeness of their friendship to each other. In Star Trek V, ?Captain Kirk, having been rescued by Spock on a Klingon ship, ?moves towards Spock and reaches for him with both hands. Spock interrupts the embrace with ?Please, Captain, not in front of the Klingons.?? (Penley 135, cited in Stein)

Ironically enough, the Spock character is modeled after a role that was originally to be played by a woman?Number One. NBC, the studio that aired the original series, felt that a woman would be too controversial. And Kirk shows his friendship to Spock numerous times. He was willing to sacrifice his life in ?Amok Time.? in Star Trek III by putting his career and life on the line to rescue him from the Genesis planet, stating that ?The needs of the one outweighed the needs of the many? (Journal of Popular Culture, Summer 1986, 100).

Numerous resources point to the fact that the ?K/S stories constitute an extension of the American literary tradition? and develop to its log ical conclusion the male-male bonding theme?? (Palumbo, 237.) Strangely enough, most of the male-male fiction is written by heterosexual women. A number of explanations have been offered for this, but basically its an enigma.

Lamb and Veith list the various masculine and feminine qualities of Kirk and Spock, which are much more explicit in K/S fiction. These qualities tend to complement one another: (Lamb, Veith 243)

 

so based on what you know right now, you wouldn't have supported the war..

there is no "cheap" war.. even Bush and Cheney are aware of that.. significant number of lives will be lost and tons of money will be spent.. that's what the generals said before this all began.. but the administration ignored their warnings and put them aside.. they made a decision on the consequences (american and iraqi lives and money) and the gains (disarming Iraq from WMD based on very questionable intelligence).. and they for some reason they decided that there is more to gain..

so what was the reason for fighting the war in the first place? do those reasons directly benefit to making america stronger/safer?

 

That's not what i said. i supported the war then, and i support the war now. i do have some issues around how it's been fought, but those are likely not the same issues you have. for instance, i think we've been way to culturally...sensitive. i think taking out a mosque or two, and all those inside, with a well placed smart-bomb, such as when sadr's fighters were battling us in Karbala would have had a highly salutory effect on the insurgents. in general, we need to take the gloves off- the fighting continues because the isurgents don't have the sense of being completely beaten. we need to change that mindset.