No gaslighting Democrats/Liberals using American Guilt over the Iraq War as a way to try and soften support for Ukraine defending themselves is a propaganda service to Putin. That gaslighting attempt in service of the Putin cause is a completely different thing than using an analogy of another war to discuss parallels and takeaways that help the decision making process moving forward. You know exactly what you do here. Stop trying to play the victim.
Vague to you since I didn't flesh out what I meant, but it's well-defined to me. But, you're right that 'our national interest' is slung around all the time as justification for lots of things, including the Iraq war, and it's not very persuasive if indeed persuasion is your purpose. Again, I just jumped in because you seemed to be making a facile argument that it was contradictory to oppose the Iraq War and support the Ukraine War. I don't think that's contradictory.
Then extend that same analysis to those claiming the opposite. That if you supported the war in Iraq it's not incumbent upon a person to support the war in Ukraine. Don't just pick on the side you're less inclined towards.
I will fully reassure you that I am not a victim. I am quite capable of thinking for myself and taking responsibility for my thoughts and actions, right or wrong. Nobody is gaslighting me even if I think their assessment is wrong. Nobody is out to get me...unless Im in 420 mode.
Sure, I agree. I think its quite rational for someone to have supported the Iraq War 20 years ago, got burned, and determined not to support any more foreign adventures, including the one in Ukraine. I'd argue Ukraine is not a foreign adventure like Iraq was, but I can respect the isolationism born out of such a bad experience. But that's really only a concession to people who learned their support of the Iraq War was wrong. Is there anyone who still thinks invading Iraq had been a good idea? I guess there might be, but I don't know what their reasoning could be.
Unless I missed it Biden has not deployed the 4th and 5th Infantry Divisions to Ukraine or even ordered a carrier task group to the Black Sea to start an air war over Ukraine. I don’t recall Biden or anyone else even advocating sending US military forces to fight and invade Russia for democracy. What I have seen are calls to continue arming. Ukrainian troops to defend themselves from Russia to protect their democracy.
We even here had people who 20 years ago were calling people traitors and supporting dictators for opposing an invasion and occupation by US troops of a sovereign nation. Now some of them are saying we are dupes for sending aid (not troops) to a democratic sovereign nation so it can defend itself from invasion.
I'm amazed Ukraine has held on this long. They have taken a couple hundred thousand casualties. Many of their experienced fighters are dead or wounded and out of the fight. On top of a massive surge of combat troops Ukraine needs a large amount of engineers to deal with mine fields and obstacles to have any chance at pushing the Russians back. Most of their engineers were killed because the Russians were smart in targeting them. I don't believe US policy is to give Ukraine a significant win on the battlefield. The way we slow roll equipment to them makes it pretty obvious. If the US military wants to move massive amounts of equipment across the globe they can do it in a heartbeat. We want it to cost Russia enough that maybe they get tired of it and quit like they did in Afghanistan. Ukraine hitting targets inside Russia galvanizes the Russian people and I don't believe they will quit. In my opinion the end of this is either a Russian victory on the battlefield or a negotiated deal. In the meantime... I'm all for sending Ukraine weapons to kill as many as they can.
Russia has always had the numerical advantage and in February of 2022 most of the thinking was that Ukraine would be overwhelmed in a month or so and the Ukrainians would be fighting though insurgent and asymmetric means. That the Ukrainians even without the most advanced weapons were able to prevent their country from being overrun in 2022 along with forcing Russian retreat from Kyiv is a testament to how well and motivated they are. There is certainly strong evidence that Ukraine can hold off Russia indefinitely as long as they continue to get ammunition.
That was a testament to how motivated they WERE. It does not mean the population still has that same resolve after 70,000 KIA and 130,000 wounded. Those are just the estimates because Ukraine won't release the real numbers. Not to mention all the civilian casualties... They also had extremely good intelligence from the US on where the Russians were attacking. It's a different fight now. It's a war of attrition and their frontline soldiers have an average age of 43. They also are having issues within the government about how to draft more people without angering the population. They need more troops to continue to hold off Russia.
This isn't true at all. Ukraine is facing an absolutely critical shortage of soldiers. They cannot hold Russia off indefinitely without remedying this situation.
Vietnam was about containing Soviet communism…. Iraq/ Afghanistan was about resources. These same wars are pretty much old as mankind. Russia invaded Ukraine form the same old reason…. Resources, buffer territory, trying to reclaim a glorious past….
I don’t see anything wrong thinking the War on Terror was a colossal waste of resources and standing up to Russia, Iran, NK, and China is prudent. Those can both be absolutely true. US support for Ukraine isn’t all about Russia.
It’s a fact that they forced a Russian retreat and in two years of fighting haven’t been overrun even though they are vastly numerically inferior. To answer you and Redfish yes Ukraine’s defeat is certainly possible and they do face some severe shortages. The fact is they’ve been facing shortages the whole war. You can even read early on this thread when many were predicting Ukraine’s imminent defeat.
Also even if Russia were to occupy most of Ukraine doesn’t mean that the war is over. As Ukraine could I’ll continue to fight an insurgent and asymmetric war.
Just because Ukraines front hasn’t crumpled yet due to a man power shortage doesn’t mean it never will… that’s preposterous logic.
I would seriously question Ukraine's motivations for letting that happen. They could likely settle a peace agreement by conceding a land bridge to Crimea. It wouldn't be the best terms, but it's there. I would also distrust any president or media pundit toying with the option of grinding down Ukraine to its last soldier.
Ukraine will more than likely agree to concessions before they get overrun. Not sure what type of concessions since that would be depend on the situation.
