. I'm not trying to give moral cover for Hamas at least not like how western media and the "both sides" people give moral cover for the IDF. You aren't one of those "collateral damage is inevitable" people right?
It's a bad comparison in many ways. Most importantly comparing the power dynamic relationship of Nazis and Jews to Palestians and Israelis. It's a horrible out of touch comparison and saying anything other than it's a stupid comparison is enabling.
Any conflict in Gaza there will be collateral damage if that's what you're asking me. There is no such thing as a clean war especially in a place as dense as Gaza. Further we cannot simply leave Hamas alone. Besides that they are holding hostages not responding to them will lead to more actions like what we saw on Oct. 7. As I've said before, I have no answers. A lot of people have died and many more will. My only hopes are that somethings could be done like getting some aid, getting people out of Gaza and that this conflict doesn't spread to the US.
Nah. I don't want people who've never seen an ordnance drop on a village in real life to say this stuff is inevitable. People living cozy suburban lives who never have to feel the effects of privileged people in mass saying "collateral damage is inevitable " shouldn't have a right to say stuff like this in a ideal world. Hamas is a fart in the wind in a conventional fighting sense. The hard reality you won't acknowledge is that Israel after the immediate attack could have done nothing else besides do emergency steengthening of the border between Gaza and Israel with zero retaliation and just as many Israeli civilians would have been saved if not more in the long run. IDF retaliation isn't for security. It isn't for saving Israeli lives. It's for revenge. Btw I think those ideas are natural feelings and I expect most countries to do that type of revenge. But let's not pretend these acts of revenge with bombing runs in Gaza are saving Israeli lives. They aren't. What they are doing is creating more angry Gazans where they will in the future retaliate back harming more Israeli civilians. So don't tell me collateral damage is inevitable for the purpose of security. Security isn't the purpose of these ordinance drops. The protection of Israeli citizens isn't the purpose of these ordinance drops. So no collateral damage isn't inevitable unless you are a privileged person living a comfortable suburban lifestyle with zero worries about the airspace above you turning into a ordinance dropping zone. Hamas again... is a fart in the wind. There is no security element in these mass murders of Palesri. It's pure revenge. Zero Israeli lives are more safe because of these bombing runs. The only thing that irt accomplishes in the long run is an increased recruitment pool of terrorists.
There is no sending of money. We are talking about basic necessities of life such as food and water, not money.
"As a general rule of thumb, a GBU-38 JDAM (air burst type) detonated at the lowest point will create a crater that is approximately 10 feet wide and 5 feet deep, depending on the type of soil in the area, and the moisture content of the soil." It impacted on concrete paver. I'm sure the soil beneath was tamped to rigidity before the pavers were laid. Those who want the nearest truth must consider all angles, not necessarily taking the side of anyone. For the record, I want Hamas to be wiped off the face of the earth but I wish the same for those who act like them.
A large part of this is Israeli military behavior. It will SPREAD if they kill a crazy amount of civilians. I'm sure the Biden admin has said so privately, but there should be pressure politically too. I get somewhat of the Iraq feeling all over again. Anyone from the West that dares to tell Israel to cool it is treated like a dog or worse.
You like to talk about normative action. Do you not understand why Israel wouldn't be very angry when hundreds of civilians have been killed, hundreds taken hostage, many of those raped before being killed or taken hostage? You keep on talking about entitlement as though that doesn't mean you're not going to be angry and fearful if you live a relatively middle class lifestyle. Besides that your argument that Israel can just strengthen it's borders they did that already and Hamas still found a way to make a major attack. Hamas wasn't just some helpless group here. They clearly have resources and capablilities of making severe cross border raids. They've been left alone for years and rather than things getting safer for Israelis we saw the exact oppposite. Just a fart in the wind doesn't kill 1,300 people and kidnap over 200.
Also to add I find it disturbing just dismissing Hamas as a "fart in the wind" and saying that anyone living a comfortable suburban life shouldn't talk about such things as disturbing as some of the bloodthirtyness we're hearing regarding going after the Palestinians. A lot of those people at that music festival lived comfortable suburban lives yet their airspace was filled with gun men on paragliders.
Up to the current war, this is not correct. They got money. I don't know about the last two weeks, but pretty sure they are getting funded by someone to build up their military capabilities. How are the leaders of Hamas billionaires?
If we start to tolerate the killing of people just doing normal things. Whether it's going to a music festival or just working at a hospital - it sets the stage for more violence. If it can happen in one place, it can happen anywhere. The US and west has the power to stop violence against citizens. Supporting Ukraine is important for this reason. Support Israel is important for this reason. And yes, ensuring Israel does not kill innocents is also of paramount.
Hamas is a far in the wind when it comes to conventional warfare. But I understand your need to moralize yourself here and defend yourself from me labeling you out of touch with your "collateral damage is inevitable" theory. But strawmanning me to do it? Shame. I didn't beat up a make-believe argument of yours unlike you. You live a privileged life. A life where rypy will never worry about the airspace above you being ordanance drops territory. You have to be hopelessly out of touch with the realities outside your comfortable existence for people to have such cold hearted takes about collateral damage. And that's the main issue I have here. We treat Israel and the IDF as some natural force that has no agency like a hurricane. Like I said before, the IDF doing mass murder of Palestinians isn't a SECURITY thing. It's a revenge thing. You know very well that that Israel could have merely strengthen their security apparatus after the attack to make sure further attacks don't happen and the making of Israeli lives protected would be the exact same if not more than the current act of flattening Gaza.
Hence why I think we value Palestian lives less. Because you are saying this towards an entity that has killed 10x more civilians than Hamas over the past 20 years. But again as Americans born and raised in this type of propaganda, whoopsied civilian deaths are fine.. Israel whoopsied its way into ten times more civilian deaths than Hamas over the past 20 years but hey we must not normalize killing people for doing normal things. Palestians living in a ghetto with no agency of their own land is not normal things like attending music festivals so I guess it's okay to do some collateral damage.
What's a "normative action"? no they don't have recourses and capabilities of a conventional fighting machine. And like I said before, Israel could have strengthen their security apparatus right after the attack, set idle for the next few weeks and just as many Israeli lives would have been saved if not more if we consider the long term impacts(the IDF basically creating more fertile hamas recruitment conditions from their bombings)
Again though how do you address the fact that October 7th did actually happen and that Hamas is still holding hundreds hostage. Fine I'm not worrying about ordinance dropping on me. At the same time I doubt you're worrying about gunmen in paragliders filling your airspace either.
People identify more with Israelis than Palestinians in Gaza - that's why. Call it what you want. At the end of the day, it's not enough to take the moral high ground. Being right doesn't help solve anything. Have to find a pathway forward.
Israel have killed thousands of civilians long before Hamas was even founded and long after it. So trying to justify the war crimes israel have committed in the last 75 years by playing the "Hamas card" is not going to work.
Why are you telling me stuff I already know. We as Americans definitely are more empathetic to the people who seem more western. I already know this.
I'm telling you that any action IDF isn't from a standpoint of saving Israeli lives or preventing future harm for Israeli lives. **** even victims of the attack have said this much about the IDF's actions after. I have to find the video but a victim of the attack literally was like "look at where the IDF forces are right after the attack. They are mobilizing for an attack and just forgot about us". If the agenda was to protect and save Israeli lives, leveling Gaza is not the rational response.
Again.. Do you not understand why Israelis are very angry and fearful right now. You keep on downplaying or even addressing just how serious what happened. I agree that Israeli actions lead to creating more supporters of Hamas. I've said several times about this being a cycle of violence. What you seem to want to do is put all the honus on Israel. Have you considered how Hamas is responsible too for propagating the cycle of violence. Also you always seem to make things a class warfare issue, it's always about well off comfortable people. Apparently only poor or oppressed people can get angry. Do you have empathy or sympathy then for the Israelis who have lost family and have family kidnapped even though they are materially more well off? Of because they adn others who are materially well off lose any right to express their fear and anger?
