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So, when it all comes down to it...

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by RKMAN, Jul 30, 2004.

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Astros Woes

  1. Jeff Bagwell (Shoulder)

    19 vote(s)
    35.8%
  2. Andy Pettitte (Can't Throw the damn ball)

    14 vote(s)
    26.4%
  3. Dan Miceli (Wild Thang, I think I HATE you)

    4 vote(s)
    7.5%
  4. Tim Redding (5th starter my ass)

    12 vote(s)
    22.6%
  5. Wade Miller (see Pettitte, A.)

    4 vote(s)
    7.5%
  1. RKMAN

    RKMAN Member

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    who's mainly to blame for the Astros' debacle this year?
     
  2. JPM0016

    JPM0016 Contributing Member

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    there are multiple problems. You can't narrow it down to just one.
     
  3. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    the meat of the lineup. bags, kent, berkman, ensberg...and the inability to drive in runs for a very prolonged stretch. they've done a better job of it in the last week or so, and their record has improved because of it.

    that's not the ONLY reason. i just think it's the most crucial reason. this team went into a tailspin because it couldn't score runs. we had a month or so where berkman and bagwell went homerless. berkman hit around .200 during that stretch...and we fell to pieces.
     
  4. codell

    codell Contributing Member

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    I totally agree. In no uncertain order of importance:

    Unstable/Ineffective bullpen
    Ineffective Redding
    Ineffective/injured Miller
    Ensberg lack of power
    Berkman's inconsistency
    Kent's inconsistency
    Hidalgo's poor start
    Bidge's fielding
    Bag's hitting
    Miceli's poor outings after a good start
    Lamb's fielding
     
  5. RKMAN

    RKMAN Member

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    I know you can't just narrow it down to one, but if one of the options I posted were to go right, which would have been the MOST beneficial? I think if we had a solid Pettitte AND Clemens at the start of the year, it would have done wonders for the team's confidence.
     
  6. JPM0016

    JPM0016 Contributing Member

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    They started out 21-11, i think confidence was the least of their problems. I don't think any of these options would be that beneficial by themselves; too many problems.
     
  7. rrj_gamz

    rrj_gamz Contributing Member

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    I picked Andy as he's hasn't done squat, but bring his injured arse here...

    But, it's honestly a combination of all the above...
     
  8. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    I won't vote until we're out of it, which we aren't yet.
     
  9. codell

    codell Contributing Member

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    Not sure about the 2nd injury stint, but during the first, I think we won most of the starts he missed.
     
  10. Ender120

    Ender120 Contributing Member

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    I voted Wade Miller.

    A year ago, he was our #2 pitcher. With Clemens and Pettitte showing up, he was thought to be one of the best #4's in baseball (just like Redding was supposed to be THE best #5). For a guy that was our #2 a year ago, he sure has underperformed. With the repeated injuries to Pettitte, he could have stepped up and shown that he was still just as valuable to the team, and provided the same durable, excellent arm that he has for years. Instead, he seems to have caught the failure bug, just like everyone else.

    We knew before the season that something was wrong with Andy's shoulder.

    Dan Miceli was a nobody last year. For the first couple months of this season, he was absolutely incredible. Now, he's going back to his previous form, which would tell me that his great performance was either a fluke, or he was overworked.

    We all knew that Redding had potential. Ask Eddie Griffin about potential. While Redding never went around shooting at ex-girlfriends, he shared the "mental case" label. He never was able to get his head all the way in the game, and I guess Clemens didn't have as big an influence on him as we all hoped he would.

    As far as Bagwell, he is my absolute favorite athlete, so take everything I am about to say with a grain of salt.

    He's not hitting well. We know that. But neither is the rest of the team (with a few obvious exceptions). I never understood why it's ok to criticize Bagwell and want to trade him for doing the best he can with an arthritic shoulder, but all of the other players that are underperforming just as much and are PERFECTLY HEALTHY get to escape that same criticism.

    Everyone wants to ship Bagwell to the Red Sox or some other AL team, where he can be a DH. First, DH's that can't hit are of no value. Second, Bagwell's contract would never be taken on by anyone. Lastly, Bagwell's value is in the field. He might not have the throwing arm that he once did, but as far as glovework, I feel that he is still one of the best in the game. Everyone always talked about how Bagwell was a vacuum, and sucked up any ball that was thrown his way. This is still true.

    If Wade Miller hadn't collapsed like the rest of the team, we would be doing a lot better right now. He always goes deep into games (saving our overworked and mediocre bullpen), and he was, on top of that, a GOOD pitcher. Somewhere along the way, that all went to hell. A rotation of Oswalt-Clemens-Miller + substitutes could have almost carried us. As it is, the rotation of Oswalt-Clemens + horrible pitching is killing us. If Miller would have stayed in his form from a year or two ago, we'd be doing a lot better right now.
     
  11. Lil Francis

    Lil Francis Member

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    2 main reasons:

    1. Bullpen might be the worst in baseball
    2. Redding one of the worst starting pitchers if not the worst in baseball.
     
  12. Puedlfor

    Puedlfor Contributing Member

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    Don't forget rainman.
     
  13. haven

    haven Member

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    The management.

    I never understood the Williams appointment. It was clearly a reactionary decision. Williams was the opposite of Dierker. But ya know... Dierker did win a lot of games as the manager. But regardless, they hired the opposte of Dirker to be manager.

    Williams was everything Dieker had not been. Experienced, tough, and a manager's manager.

    But the real problem? He was an idiot. He managed by his gut. That type of manager ceased to be elite back when Branch Rickey came into his own.

    You don't hire a complete, total, and absolute idiot to be your manager in modern baseball. The Astros did. They're paying the price, as they did last year.
     
  14. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    an idiot who won what?? 960 something games in his career?
     
  15. Refman

    Refman Contributing Member

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    Yeah...but he's been a manager since 1892. So he's 960 and a billion. :eek: ;)
     

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