1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

[NYPOST] What Astros are doing now makes cheating scandal even sadder

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by Rockets34Legend, Sep 27, 2021.

  1. Rockets34Legend

    Rockets34Legend Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2002
    Messages:
    20,721
    Likes Received:
    15,578
    **** New York.

    https://nypost.com/2021/09/25/what-...ng-scandal-even-sadder/?utm_source=reddit.com

    The biggest winner of the 2021 major league season is … the 2017 Houston Astros.

    Settle down. I have not come to exonerate or forgive the sign stealers. I would not argue with anyone who feels the players got off easy by not facing suspension, and the bans on, say, Alex Cora and A.J. Hinch should have been longer than one year considering their one-year expulsions came in the one year the major league season was 60 regular-season games.

    So, to summarize, I found what the 2017 Astros did disturbing and disgusting. It should be a non-erasable part of the baseball résumé of all involved.

    But the 2021 season also provides evidence — lots and lots of evidence — that cheating was not everything for the 2017 Astros. Would they have won that title without cheating? That is uncertain. But time has shown they were fully capable of doing so, which in a way makes the cheating both sadder and worse.

    Of the six main hitters from the 2017 club still regularly active this year, Marwin Gonzalez is the only one to fall precipitously (Jake Marisnick, who did not play as much in 2017, also has fallen). But Jose Altuve, Alex Bregman, Carlos Correa, Yuli Gurriel and George Springer have remained similar offensive performers. The industry thought enough of Springer to make him the highest-paid free agent last offseason (six years, $150 million from Toronto), and Correa could very well be looking at that title this winter.

    Cora and Hinch have returned to managing in 2021, and, with no overt illegal advantages, are generally considered to have done two of the better jobs in the sport, with Boston and Detroit, respectively.

    Jeff Luhnow, the architect of the Astros, has remained outside the game. But the infrastructure he built remains elite. General manager James Click and manager Dusty Baker have done well in navigating the post-scandal turbulence — I’m not sure there could be a better manager in this kind of storm than the wise, seen-it-all Baker. But Luhnow’s personnel decisions and feeder system have kept the Astros among the majors’ best clubs. No one would be surprised if the core of a team that Luhnow assembled won the World Series this year — with no garbage-can banging. Houston did get to ALCS Game 7 last year.

    It raises the question if an organization (perhaps an industry) should be open-minded about employing Luhnow and Carlos Beltran, considering all others involved are back in the good graces of the game and that another victory for the 2017 Astros is that the booing has mainly subsided outside New York (the Yankees lost the 2017 ALCS to the Astros) and Los Angeles (the Dodgers lost that World Series), though the playoffs will probably bring a fresh round of animus. Cora is probably the favorite to win the AL Manager of the Year one season removed from suspension, and Hinch should receive some top-three votes for his revitalizing work with Detroit. Players are receiving honors and money, executives jobs and awards.

    Beltran was viewed as the key player ringleader of the sign-stealing apparatus. But the important word in that sentence is “player.” All players received immunity from punishment for testifying. But Beltran was the one player named in the MLB report for his influence in the cheating, and that led to the Mets firing him before he ever managed a game. He spoke to MLB investigators as a player, but was fired as a manager.

    Regardless of how influential Beltran was in the Houston clubhouse — and the answer is very — the adults in the room still needed to be the Astros manager Hinch and bench coach (and Beltran pal) Cora. They should have had the moral compass to stop this — rather than, in Hinch’s case, willfully ignore it for the most part, and in Cora’s case, feed it. They were punished. They got to return. Beltran has no official ban. But this does feel like exile.

    Luhnow is more complicated. He is, in many ways, the ideal candidate for the Mets’ president of baseball operations job. He almost certainly would speak the same business and financial language as owner Steve Cohen. Cohen has insisted he does not want to train someone on his dime to do this job. Luhnow would need no training. But the Mets, more than any team, need not to associate right now with scandal, considering their persistent dysfunction. And Luhnow’s history has consisted of being too near third rails, if not standing right on them.

    One reason he has not received another MLB job opportunity was that he made so few friends in the game. Luhnow brought a corporate culture, the likes of which MLB had never experienced before, to the Astros’ baseball operations. It was methodical, efficient and competent. But also ruthless and without empathy.

    Luhnow had a reputation for not treating people well. The Astros often acted near or beyond the lines when it came to rules, and their feel for people was poor. A culture formed and from that culture, among other things, came the sign stealing and an assistant GM who taunted female reporters while praising alleged domestic abuser Roberto Osuna — a reliever who was only an Astro because they saw his talent without enough concerns about what his presence said. Also, Houston might have been Ground Zero for pitchers illegally weaponizing extreme sticky substances.

    But what Luhnow left behind baseball-wise was far more than he inherited — and he inherited Altuve, Springer and Dallas Keuchel. Players Luhnow acquired who were not even part of the 2017 club — such as Yordan Alvarez and Michael Brantley— get booed as if they were 2017 Astros. They have been central to continued success (Brantley was re-signed by the current administration). But more than anything is the volume of talent that has come out of the minors.

    In 2012, in Luhnow’s first year taking over, before he could have influence on production out of a feeder system, just 27 players in the majors had been signed to their original pro contract by the Astros, second fewest in MLB. This year, there are 75. Not only was that the MLB-high through Thursday, but it was 14 more than the runners-up Yankees and Cardinals — and Luhnow came to Houston from St. Louis, where he helped make its pipeline among the sport’s best.

    Not all of the 75 came via Luhnow’s tenure. But he helped set up the processes by which Houston would procure talent. The Astros were the first to heavily use technology in the field, particularly to help pitchers, and what Houston has received from its procurement of Latin talent the past two years has helped it thrive even after losing Justin Verlander (Tommy John surgery). Luis Garcia, Cristian Javier, Jose Urquidy and Framber Valdez were this year a combined 34-16 in 101 games (74 starts) covering 466 ¹/₃ innings with a 3.26 ERA.

    Luhnow may never get back in the majors, but what he left behind is having a substantial impact. Many of his disciples are sprinkled throughout the sport — including Milwaukee GM David Stearns, who is arguably best suited for the Mets’ top baseball job (Stearns was gone from Houston by the time of the cheating scandal).

    Again, there is no pardon being offered here for the 2017 Astros. Simply recognition — fed by results this year — that the success was about more than stealing signs.
     
    Nook, clos4life, ryan_98 and 2 others like this.
  2. Frank Drebin

    Frank Drebin Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    67
    I know Luhnow brought in a corporate/cutthroat culture, but was he really that disliked in the baseball community? Reputation for not treating people well? He always seemed pleasant in interviews.

    Hope he gets another shot. The Rockies could use a change.
     
    Slyonebluejay and raining threes like this.
  3. astrosrule

    astrosrule Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2002
    Messages:
    4,412
    Likes Received:
    4,656
    ah yes, the clean clean yankees and there 0 domestic abusers. Sure they stole signs more, sure they've acquired more domestic abusers, but why let facts get into the way of some idiot writing some garbage that some morons will believe.
     
  4. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    48,116
    Likes Received:
    14,343
    I thought the premise of that article was to plant the seed that the Mets consider Luhnow… but he did so without being too pushy about it, in case he got some local backlash from the holier-than-though baseball insiders that wanted Luhnow gone forever.
     
    Nook, clos4life, vince and 4 others like this.
  5. RKREBORN

    RKREBORN Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2006
    Messages:
    9,870
    Likes Received:
    10,822
    Didn't read. Fu*k New York
     
  6. Elienator

    Elienator Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 1999
    Messages:
    1,391
    Likes Received:
    1,188
    I’m not all that familiar with the Posts coverage of the Yankees and Mets. I read some of this as blaming the “organization” and not the players so Yankees fans have some way to rationalize calling Correa a cheater for two years and then wanting to sign him to a record breaking contract.
     
    clos4life, vince, edwardc and 4 others like this.
  7. donkeypunch

    donkeypunch Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2013
    Messages:
    19,473
    Likes Received:
    21,982
    The mets are such a **** organization that they would likely be the one to hire Luhnow and just deal with the backlash of it all, just to sweep it under the rug when they started winning again.
     
    vince and raining threes like this.
  8. Handles

    Handles Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,347
    Likes Received:
    1,132
    Read a few sentences. In a year teams are accusing NY of sign stealing, we get this crap. **** NY.
     
  9. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    48,116
    Likes Received:
    14,343
    Pretty sure any team that hires Luhnow, and starts winning, will have the same sort of impact. Cora and Hinch are being universally praised and will be getting manager of the year votes.
     
  10. donkeypunch

    donkeypunch Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2013
    Messages:
    19,473
    Likes Received:
    21,982
    True. I was watching a random game this year and some team just hired a new manager and one of the booth guys played with him and kept comparing him to Hinch on how great of a communicator he was.
     
  11. T_Man

    T_Man Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Messages:
    6,530
    Likes Received:
    2,420
    Everyone steals signs... Even in little league you have coaches trying to steal signs...

    When a player is on 2nd base he's looking at the catcher to try and steal signs... So for me this really isn't a issue....

    T_Man
     
  12. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2002
    Messages:
    14,264
    Likes Received:
    5,224
    I thought the article was actually flattering of the Astros. Suggesting that they have had success post-sign stealing and that many of the top 2017 Astros contributors continue to perform at a similar offensive level.

    They did omit the fact that the 2019 Astros were the greatest offensive team in 100 years and should have won the World Series.
     
    Handles, whiskeyred, vince and 3 others like this.
  13. RunninRaven

    RunninRaven Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2000
    Messages:
    15,018
    Likes Received:
    2,654
    Yeah, the article is really more about Luhnow than anything. I agree with whoever said it is an attempt to subtly influence the Mets upper management to consider him without outwardly supporting one of the guys that seems to have suffered the most from the cheating scandal. Still, the article DOES openly state that the Astros are really THAT good even without cheating, which is nice to read even if they still continue to portray the cheating that they did as ridiculously worse than it really was, compared to what the rest of the league does.

    I was hoping that Hinch wouldn't have quite the success he has in Detroit so that maybe the Astros have a shot at bringing him back. I don't know how long they will roll with Baker but I'm ready to move on from him.
     
  14. Salvy

    Salvy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2009
    Messages:
    18,827
    Likes Received:
    29,361
    Wait till you see what they have to say when Astros win it all this year, then the salt will really start to flow... I could see the headlines now "Astros at it again?" "The Astros won, this is why the real losers are baseball fans" " A sad day for the league" "MLB investigating 2021 Astros World Series win"...
     
  15. desihooper

    desihooper Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2000
    Messages:
    5,394
    Likes Received:
    2,598
    Just further goes to show how dumb it was to do it. That's probably the biggest WTF revelation that came out of the work Tony Adams did on impact.
     
  16. marks0223

    marks0223 2017 and 2022 World Series Champions
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    11,229
    Likes Received:
    15,926
    So you're saying the Astros didn't invite cheating in baseball...

     
  17. raining threes

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    12,708
    Likes Received:
    8,365
    Agreed and seeing what the Mets have hired as the previous 2 GM's, Luhnow would be a huge upgrade on all fronts.

    Why would you want to bring back a manager who failed to use the best pitcher in baseball in a game seven of a WS?
     
  18. The Real Shady

    The Real Shady Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2000
    Messages:
    17,170
    Likes Received:
    3,966
    Because Luhnow and Hinch worked out how Cole would be used in game 7. Not during the middle of an inning, and only with the lead.
     
  19. YOLO

    YOLO Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2012
    Messages:
    46,688
    Likes Received:
    44,883
    it's extremely old news why Cole didn't come in. And he himself admitted not wanting to come in during the middle of an inning. There was a plan in place for situations in which Cole would appear.
     
    Nook likes this.
  20. raining threes

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    12,708
    Likes Received:
    8,365
    A failed plan

    You go with Osuna and then to Cole.

    I said as much at the time.

    Or you go full on Bochy and MadBum and let Cole pitch until he cant pitch anymore. It's not like he was going to re-sign with the Stros.

    What you dont do is not let the best pitcher in the league not pitch in a game 7 of the WS. Particularly when Cole told Hinch he was available. Yeah Hinch obviously screwed the pooch but because he's such a nice guy some posters refuse to admit this.
     
    Nook likes this.

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now