Let's go there: Are the unvaccinated the new Trumps?

Yes and no. While it's highly possible vaccinated people are potential carriers or display visible symptoms, they generally don't escalate into going into ICUs for treatment.

So yes, vaccinated people can unknowingly facilitate the spread to the unvaccinated, it's mostly the unvax'd who are burning out our healthcare workers by piling up in ICUs and crowding out other patients.

I'm fine with seeing and looking into data that proves otherwise, but having a vaccinated population with percentages that achieve "herd immunity" would definitely reduce the current hospital rush, which is entirely the point.

You can argue it's pointless if/when there is a variant that evades vaccines, but we aren't even there yet, and I absolutely dismiss the implied premise that vaccinating is pointless for that reason.

The healthcare workers you claimed to care about would more than likely agree with me.

 

Targeted vaccination is not pointless but vaccinating entire population is an exercise in futility when dealing with corona viruses.

 

This is one of those things where I really don't know the answer. I guess you're describing this like vaccinating everyone for the flu, which can ultimately be pointless in terms of eradication given its rate of mutation.

But in terms of saving lives, there is definite utility in vaccinating the entire population because of the novel nature of this virus. There weren't many people suffering these symptoms 2 years ago.

So it is possible that I can get violently sick in the future despite getting 2 shots because corona or some other disease evolved beyond the vaccine parameters.

But I'm 90% sure I'm not going to get violently sick from the Delta variant and land in the ICU unlike the pro-choice non-vaxers who might think it's a fruitless decision.

 

Cool. Thank you for the information. I believed that the vaccine makes infection less likely and infection with severe symptoms even less so.

 

For the original strain, (iirc) severe illness occured in about 15-20% of infections with about 40-50% asymptomatic and the rest being mild to medium illness. Severity seems to be higher for delta.

Those 20% at risk of severe illness are the ones that should be vaccinated. Vaccinating the remaining 80% significantly increases (essentially quadruples) the chances of the virus mutating into something more malignant, while offering lesser benefits in return.

Spreading should be combated with education, masks, social distancing, sanitation, testing, tracing etc and not with vaccination

Summary, limit hospitalizations and minimize chances of mutation with targeted vaccinations, while using masks etc to isolate and curb spread.

If the majority of the population is vaccinated and the virus is not contained, we run the risk of things really getting out of hand as the govt, CDC, and vaccine advocates, lose all credibility, leaving the door wide open for quacks, demagogues and nut jobs.

 

Gotta get the dumb dumbs vaccinated somehow. Aka Trump Supporters mostly.

 

I'm not sure where you're getting these numbers. Malignancy mostly happens by chance regardless of the strain. It can evolve here, Nepal, Croatia, Australia, etc... The idea that we hoard vaccines like antibiotics only sounds appealing to me if people aren't dying from preventable (weaker to vax) strains and there was an alternative people could agree and follow.

None of these things are happening, so I think it's prudent among a sea of unknowns to worry about cases in the here and now.

I'm all for this, but there have been plenty of debates over civil liberties regarding each and every act you've listed. People "don't wanna be muzzled", "wanna to look at people in the face", "thinks the 6 ft rule is a joke", etc...

Let's not even go into how contact tracing can easily be implemented if privacy wasn't an issue.

You can't force people to mask or isolate. Government is already losing cred while fatal complications from Delta, the current dominant strain, is preventable.

Let's say strain X is vax resistant. Well the people who went to ICUs over delta are just at risk as those who were vaccinated today. That's their second trip vs my potential first trip. So I'll be thinking that vaccinating others right now is perfectly sane from my 1st trip point of view.

Then you have to consider whether the new strain is novel in the sense that immune systems are blind to it. If yes, it means quarantine and isolation has to roll back to last year standards while we wait for a booster against X.

If not, and being vaxxed is a good enough for the body to kick off a flu-like response, then who the **** are you to decide whether or not I or anyone else deserves to get the shot?

 

I don't understand this statement in bold. Are you saying chances of covid mutation is higher in vaccinated folks with asymptomatic covid19 symptoms than in unvaccinated folks with covid19 asymptomatic symptoms?

 

please post more. This post and your other ones are informative, well reasoned and thought provoking.

 

Mutation often occurs cos the virus is trying to survive the effect of the immune system combating it. If your body is accommodating to the virus, then it is less likely to mutate.

Vaccines train your body to fight the virus and thus the virus is more likely to mutate in such a host than one where the body's immuno response is less aggressive (e.g. unvaccinated asymptomatic).

 

Unfortunately, we know that education, distancing, and masking are simply not happening in certain parts of the country. Trump ensured that.

Since it’s not an option, it seems that we are reliant on big pharma to react successfully to new variants. I don’t know if that’s possible, but that’s where we are.

 

This is my laypersons understanding as well based on what I have read.

 

Pure hypocrisy. Do you call what trump did honey or vinegar? Trump ridiculed and politicized mask wearing, denied facts and science, and caused his idiot followers to do the same. He exacerbates the greatest public health crisis and now you, a Trumper, is calling for honey, gentility, patience with the idiot trumpers who refuse to mask, distance, get a vaccine? Many of whom still deny that covid is anything more than a flu? Just like Daddy Trump taught them?

Covid is the worst group project in my lifetime, and those of us who are diligent are tired of doing all the work for the morons in the group. And there is no reasonable expectation that these idiot Trumpers will change their minds about masks, distancing or the vaccine voluntarily.

So the answer is incentives and disincentives. How about no insurance coverage for covid treatment if you didn’t get a vaccine? How about pulling funding like Biden is considering? How about you can’t attend public school in person unless you wear a mask?

Trumpers have no credibility on the subject of covid. You guys have exacerbated the worst public health crisis in our lifetimes by beating selfish assholes. Quit talking and act in the greater good of the country.

But we all know that’s not happening. The trumper plan is complain about why life is harder with covid, but not lift a finger to do anything about it.

 

Not sure where you got the idea of hoarding vaccinees from.

What I have simply said is that if someone is likely to be severely ill from the virus, they should get vaccinated as it would benefit them and the system the most. On the other hand if someone is asymptoimatic, there is little benefit from getting them vaccinated.

Who is asymptomatic or not is not by random chance but likely dependent on genetic and/or other biological factors and more effort should have been put into identifying such.

The challenge should not be an inexcuse to walk down a riskeir path simply for political expediency. The more we vaccinate, the higher the risk of mutation and vaccine resistance.

We have seen how much effort these idiots put into campaining for office. A small percentage of that effort would go a long way in convincing people to follow protocol.

Again, I have not said people should be denied the vaccine. Anyone that wants toget it should be free to do so, but it should not be misrepresented as the cure all to the problem, when in reality it is not.

People want to get vaccinated so that they can forego all the mask wearing and social distancing. But we are seeing the backlash from people being disappointed from being asked to wear masks etc after getting vaccinated. The more such happens, the more people will become reluctant to follow govt guidelines and the more the virus will continue to spread.

A vaccine resisitant strain basically sends us back to square one and thus we shouldnt be increasing the likelyhood of its occurence. Instead the govt should remain consistent and put more effort into convincing people to following the guidelines.

 

how do you know if someone will either be severly ill or jusy asymptomatic?

I mean you cant take the vaccine only once you showing symptoms

 

and thats why I said effort should have been put into systematically identifying such cos there is a method to the madness

 

but there are plenty of pefectly healthy people who are unvaccinated who have been severly ill and died right?

at this point while "systematically identifying" hasn't been achieved yet why risk dying?

 

its not about being healthy or not, people's system simply react differently to the infection, but little effort has been put into characterizing such. Instead the bulk of effort has been put into the more financially lucrative vaccine development.

While getting vaccinated reduces the severity for many people (as your body hopefully responds faster as it has been pre-trained) it does not elimate the risk of dying. Anyone that wants to be vaccinated should be free to do so, but we must also be clear that increasing the number of people vaccinated increases the chances of a mutation, and that would leave us with a virus thats much worse than the existing strains.

The more the vaccine is touted like a cure for the pandemic, the more vaccinated people are likely to ignore guidelines that would limit spreading and thus the less likely we will see the end of the pandemic

 

I know a couple in their 30's who got it and were pretty sick for a week, then it took a week to get their sense of taste and smell back. Posted about it in the thread in Hangout. A much older couple we've known for about 30 years, in their 60's, came down with it a few days ago. One of them had to go to an emergency room, having a difficult time breathing. They gave him some meds and offered to check him into a hospital, which freaked him out. He said he'd stay at home and hope to get better. We're dropping some takeout on their porch tomorrow. I'm worried about them. He's diabetic and has had circulation problems in his legs the last few years. She had heart surgery last year.

All of those people had been vaccinated with the Pfizer or the Moderna vaccine a few months ago. There's not doubt that it's the Delta variant. We've gone back to having groceries delivered or curbside pickup. I hate it. I hate wearing a mask. So does my S.O., but we'd hate being hospitalized or dead a heck of a lot more.