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[Jewish Voice] ‘Jexodus’ Group Helps Jewish Millennials Leave Democratic Party

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Os Trigonum, Mar 10, 2019.

  1. Buck Turgidson

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    A flute with no holes, is not a flute. A donut with no hole, is a Danish.
     
    No Worries and conquistador#11 like this.
  2. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Okogie Only Fan
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    David Bernstein argues at the Volokh Conspiracy that the ACLU has acted to promote anti-semitism in various ways:

    There is perhaps no more guilty party in the current wave of antisemitic attacks on pro-Israel Americans than the American Civil Liberties Union.

    To understand why, one first has to understand that the essence of modern antisemitism is not so much hostility to Jews as individuals, but a conspiracy theory in which Jews, collectively, exercise hidden power over events for the benefit of Jews at the expense of everyone else.

    Given this essence of antisemitism, people and organizations who make false or wildly exaggerated statements about the doings of the "Israel Lobby" are contributing to antisemitism, regardless of whether they have any personal animus toward Jews. Consider, for example, those who have made the not-just-wrong-but-utterly-wacky claim that the lobby (a) somehow managed to persuade George Bush, Dick Cheney, 3/4 of the Senate, most of the House of Representatives, and so on, against their better judgement that going to war with Iraq was a good idea, and (b) that the lobby did so on behalf of Israel's interests. These folks are giving aid and comfort to antisemites, regardless of their feelings about Jews. Indeed, but for the latent idea that Jews are disloyal to the U.S. and have special power to pervert national agendas to their own agenda, no one would take this conspiracy theory seriously.

    Let's turn to the ACLU. Various states have passed legislation that bans their state governments from contracting with businesses that refuse to do business with Israeli-affiliated institutions and individuals. This could be anyone from the Israeli government itself to American students who study in Israel, and everything in between. These laws are controversial as many people think that political boycotts of this sort shouldn't be penalized in any way by the government. The other side argues that first of all it's quite rich for boycotters to complain about being boycotted, and second that the boycott movement against Israel is both in its origins and in its practical effects antisemitic, making them in effect an adjunct of antidiscrimination laws. We need not resolve that debate here, but simply to note that the ACLU takes the side of the laws' opponents, and has launched both a litigation and public relations campaign against the laws. (I've explained why the ACLU's legal arguments are wrong here.)

    There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but there is something wrong with the ACLU publicly arguing that when states require contractors to sign a certification that they do not boycott Israel-related entities, that the contractors are being forced to sign a "loyalty oath" to Israel.
    more info and examples at the link

    https://reason.com/volokh/2019/03/11/the-aclus-shameful-role-in-promoting-ant
     
  3. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    Does ACLU ever argue that the forces pressuring policy to ban such contractors are specifically Jewish forces?
     
  4. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    This sounds like a pretty dangerous standard. I can be an antisemite if I give aid and comfort to antisemites with my own opinions, even if my own opinions aren't themselves antisemitic? To port this standard over to a different policy argument, if I bear Hispanics no ill will and perhaps even want to naturalize the illegal immigrants we have in the country today, but I also want Trump's border wall and a vigorous defense of the border -- I might be a white nationalist because there are also white nationalist organizations that want Trump's border wall and vigorous defense of the border to whom my agreement on that score would give aid and comfort. Do you really believe this?
     
  5. jcf

    jcf Member

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    The quote doesn't match your response. In the quote, the people contributing to antisemitism are those making false or wildly exaggerated statements.
     
  6. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Okogie Only Fan
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    this is Bernstein's argument, not mine. Not sure what I think about it. But I do agree with the paragraph that describes the effect on contractors who sign the certification:

    Contractors certifying that their businesses don't boycott Israel-related entities is no more a "loyalty oath" to Israel than certifying that they don't refuse to deal with black or gay or women-owned business or nonunion businesses is a "loyalty oath" to blacks, gays, women, or unions. Contractors who sign anti-boycott certifications are free to boycott Israel and related entities in their personal lives, and they and their businesses are free to donate to anti-Israel candidates and causes, and even to publicly advocate for BDS.​
     
  7. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    The difference there being blacks and gays and Americsn Jews are American citizens protected by the US Constitution, while the State of Israel is a foreign nation which is not.

    If they wish to become the 51st US State, and extend Constitutional protections to everybody within their borders I'd be proud to have them.
     
  8. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Okogie Only Fan
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    yes, that's true, but the point Bernstein is trying to make is about the logic of the "loyalty oath" accusation. He is not trying to argue that the terms in the analogy are equivalent, but rather that the relation between the terms within the analogy is the same.
     
  9. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    "False" and "wildly exaggerated" is David Bernstein's analysis. Can I justify calling someone a white nationalist by reminding my readership that a 2,000 mile wall is "stupid" and "ineffective"?

    If you post articles without any commentary of your own, you should not be surprised if people ascribe those opinions to you. There is something about that article that you found it compelling enough to post.
     
  10. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Okogie Only Fan
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    I don't care if people ascribe opinions to me. that's their problem as far as I can tell.
     
  11. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Okogie Only Fan
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    I will add that I have been very disappointed in several positions the ACLU has taken on several topics in recent years. In some cases I believe they work against the very civil liberties they are supposedly pledged to uphold.
     
  12. jcf

    jcf Member

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    I think you are conflating two things. You may be making your own point, but it wasn't responsive to the paragraph you quoted (or the remainder of it where it gives examples of "false" or "wildly exaggerated" claims.
     
  13. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Okogie Only Fan
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    I will also add that I do not find much to disagree with here in this section of Bernstein's essay:

    By spreading the false meme that no-boycott certifications amount to not just loyalty oaths, but loyalty oaths to a foreign government the ACLU has spread the canard that the pro-Israel (read, overwhelmingly Jewish) organizations and their members want to use the force of the state to require everyone to be "loyal" to Israel.

    And this has indeed fueled antisemitic fires, and given credence to antisemitic statements like those Rep. Ilhan Omar regarding how Congress has been bought off to be loyal to Israel. I can't tell you how many times I've read in response to criticism of Omar's claim that American Jews are buying the government's loyalty to Israel, "she's right, what about the anti-BDS loyalty oaths?" For example, here is Paul Waldman in the Washington Post arguing that Omar has been "unfairly smeared," and pointing to imaginary state laws that "literally" require contractors to "pledge [their] loyalty to Israel."
     
  14. conquistador#11

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  15. Ottomaton

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    I am perfectly comfortable to say commiting to refuse to discriminate against blacks is a loyalty oath to the US Constitution. I have no issue with that characterization at all and think it is perfectly legitimate.

    Loyalty oaths to the US Constitution, like the Pledge of Alegiance = Good. Loyalty oaths to foreign governments = Bad. The logic there seems perfectly straightforward.

    You can pledge allegiance to Satan or Soviet Russia if you want - that is protected speech. But the government can not require me to pledge allegiance to Satan, or even something that most Americans believe is good, like Jesus or Israel.
     
  16. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    I perhaps don't understand where you're going with this. I didn't think the nature of the claims was important at all. The implication of the argument I see is that if I agree with some other camp on a policy preference but for totally different reasons, my reasons don't matter -- I can be essentially be lumped in with that camp (and thereafter dismissed with that camp). To dispense with parallels, if I think the US should withdraw its support for Israel because of its treatment of Palestinians, I am essentially like other people who want to withdraw its support for Israel because they want to wipe Jews off the face of the planet.
     
  17. Os Trigonum

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    which would be twisting the issue, which is precisely why it matters in this context
     
  18. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    You are talking in circles to convince yourself. One is a foreign nation, and one is fellow US Citizens which seems clear as day and straight forward.
     
  19. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Okogie Only Fan
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    okay
     
  20. Invisible Fan

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    Another Jewish exodus.

    Does that mean Trump is their new Moses!?!?

    With the stature of a golden cow:
    Part time Tru-Prophet
    Part time Anti-Semite
     

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