1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

  2. ROCKETS GAMEDAY
    Jeff Balke joins Dave for live postgame as the Rockets take on the Raptors at Toyota Center. Come hang with us for live fan interaction and commentary!

    LIVE! ClutchFans on YouTube

Fracking Rant

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, Sep 22, 2014.

  1. GanjaRocket

    GanjaRocket Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Messages:
    3,557
    Likes Received:
    106
    On that note then there's also a bubble in predicting/surmising there is no bubble

    But when you look at facts its all very precarious..
     
  2. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2002
    Messages:
    46,550
    Likes Received:
    6,135
    This is a good time to buy anything that people think is a bubble. Like stocks.
     
  3. GanjaRocket

    GanjaRocket Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Messages:
    3,557
    Likes Received:
    106
    Lol.. bonds and dollar debt derivatives I guess too right?


    But don't buy bitcoin that's actually a bubble. It's the real ponzi scheme
     
  4. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2002
    Messages:
    46,550
    Likes Received:
    6,135
    Do people think bonds and bitcoin are a bubble?
     
  5. Dairy Ashford

    Dairy Ashford Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,608
    Likes Received:
    1,902
    C'mon, man. I'm biased on my Dad's behalf but this is one of the hardest things you can do in undergrad. It's possible a lot of these guys skip MS/MChE or Phd because of all the (relative) cash being thrown at them.
     
  6. Northside Storm

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    The science is settled, because a Quora user said so.

    interesting.

    you guys might not want to venture into the climate change section, if that's your bar for peer-review evidence.

    Anyways, I think this is a fairly balanced take that underlines my key concern.

    http://environment.yale.edu/envy/stories/fracking-outpaces-science-on-its-impact

    “Without a policy—and the United States isn’t good with energy policy—there’s a real possibility that natural gas would delay development of renewables.”
    — James Saiers, F&ES hydrology professor

    oh yeah, fair and balenced

    “The question isn’t ‘can hydraulic fracturing be done safely?’ It’s ‘will it be done safely?’”
    — Robert Jackson, Duke University environmental scientist
     
  7. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    20,066
    Likes Received:
    17,217
    This article is the perfect example of an ad hominym attack. He spends 11 paragraphs attacking the intelligence of the people who oppose him. In the final paragraph he says, essentially, "if we ever have a discussion on the issues, I'll win because I'm right" without going into meaningful detail.

    I would be good with fracking, but for the fact that whenever the industry has done this:

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/U01EK76Sy4A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    the industry has a track record a mile long of trying everything possible to weasel out. Setup a regulatory body with real teeth, and the power to force remediation, even if it bankrupts the company in question, and we can talk. As long as gas companies can break communities, and then skate off with a token fine, people are going to be pissed.

    "You break it, you buy it" should be the rule.

    It is exactly the same thing that happened in the 70's with chemical companies lighting the Cuyahoga River on fire. It's an example of the problem of the commons . People want to use public, shared resources for personal profit, but they somehow think they shouldn't have to pay when they damage those private resources.

    Man up and take responsibility, or at the very least, create an independent body in charge of forcing responsibility.
     
  8. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    72,094
    Likes Received:
    37,037
    It's a fun video but there's no proof that fracking caused that problem. It's pretty clear that their well got contaminated by natural gas, but a fracking well is somewhere between 6,000 feet and 10,000 feet while most wells are about 500 feet deep. Some of the wells get contaminated due to leaks in the gas well itself, they create a concrete wall to prevent this from happening, but if it happened to leak somewhere in the water table, you could get wells contaminated by natural gas. That said, most of the time the flammable water is merely when naturally occurring pockets of methane migrate relatively close to the surface and have nothing to do with natural gas drilling at all. Of course, it's much easier to say that someone else fracked with your well.
     
  9. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    20,066
    Likes Received:
    17,217
    Water supply is OK for 3 generations

    Company shows up and starts fracking a couple of miles away.

    Two months into it, water from the aquifer is suddenly flammable.

    Rinse and repeat over and over.

    It may not be scientific proof, but it seems to fit within the burden of proof for civil court, IMO.

    Obfuscating about the burden of proof is straight out of the big tobacco playbook.
     
  10. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2002
    Messages:
    26,980
    Likes Received:
    2,365
    I was waiting for which mullet was going to post the water on fire video

    seriously dude, come one. Need to link that to fracking, which you haven't
     
  11. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    72,094
    Likes Received:
    37,037
    Absolutely, just like everyone knows, correlation equals causation.
     
  12. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    34,921
    Likes Received:
    10,254
    http://online.wsj.com/articles/climate-science-is-not-settled-1411143565

    [rquoter]Climate Science Is Not Settled
    We are very far from the knowledge needed to make good climate policy, writes leading scientist Steven E. Koonin

    By STEVEN E. KOONIN
    Sept. 19, 2014 12:19 p.m. ET

    The crucial scientific question for policy isn't whether the climate is changing. That is a settled matter: The climate has always changed and always will. Mitch Dobrowner
    The idea that "Climate science is settled" runs through today's popular and policy discussions. Unfortunately, that claim is misguided. It has not only distorted our public and policy debates on issues related to energy, greenhouse-gas emissions and the environment. But it also has inhibited the scientific and policy discussions that we need to have about our climate future.

    My training as a computational physicist—together with a 40-year career of scientific research, advising and management in academia, government and the private sector—has afforded me an extended, up-close perspective on climate science. Detailed technical discussions during the past year with leading climate scientists have given me an even better sense of what we know, and don't know, about climate. I have come to appreciate the daunting scientific challenge of answering the questions that policy makers and the public are asking.

    The crucial scientific question for policy isn't whether the climate is changing. That is a settled matter: The climate has always changed and always will. Geological and historical records show the occurrence of major climate shifts, sometimes over only a few decades. We know, for instance, that during the 20th century the Earth's global average surface temperature rose 1.4 degrees Fahrenheit.

    Related Video
    Tens of thousands of people marched in New York City Sunday to raise awareness and demand action on climate change ahead of Tuesday's United Nations Climate Summit. Photo: AP

    Nor is the crucial question whether humans are influencing the climate. That is no hoax: There is little doubt in the scientific community that continually growing amounts of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, due largely to carbon-dioxide emissions from the conventional use of fossil fuels, are influencing the climate. There is also little doubt that the carbon dioxide will persist in the atmosphere for several centuries. The impact today of human activity appears to be comparable to the intrinsic, natural variability of the climate system itself.

    Rather, the crucial, unsettled scientific question for policy is, "How will the climate change over the next century under both natural and human influences?" Answers to that question at the global and regional levels, as well as to equally complex questions of how ecosystems and human activities will be affected, should inform our choices about energy and infrastructure.

    But—here's the catch—those questions are the hardest ones to answer. They challenge, in a fundamental way, what science can tell us about future climates.

    Even though human influences could have serious consequences for the climate, they are physically small in relation to the climate system as a whole. For example, human additions to carbon dioxide in the atmosphere by the middle of the 21st century are expected to directly shift the atmosphere's natural greenhouse effect by only 1% to 2%. Since the climate system is highly variable on its own, that smallness sets a very high bar for confidently projecting the consequences of human influences.

    A second challenge to "knowing" future climate is today's poor understanding of the oceans. The oceans, which change over decades and centuries, hold most of the climate's heat and strongly influence the atmosphere. Unfortunately, precise, comprehensive observations of the oceans are available only for the past few decades; the reliable record is still far too short to adequately understand how the oceans will change and how that will affect climate.

    A third fundamental challenge arises from feedbacks that can dramatically amplify or mute the climate's response to human and natural influences. One important feedback, which is thought to approximately double the direct heating effect of carbon dioxide, involves water vapor, clouds and temperature.


    Scientists measure the sea level of the Ross Sea in Antarctica. National Geographic/Getty Images
    But feedbacks are uncertain. They depend on the details of processes such as evaporation and the flow of radiation through clouds. They cannot be determined confidently from the basic laws of physics and chemistry, so they must be verified by precise, detailed observations that are, in many cases, not yet available.

    Beyond these observational challenges are those posed by the complex computer models used to project future climate. These massive programs attempt to describe the dynamics and interactions of the various components of the Earth system—the atmosphere, the oceans, the land, the ice and the biosphere of living things. While some parts of the models rely on well-tested physical laws, other parts involve technically informed estimation. Computer modeling of complex systems is as much an art as a science.

    For instance, global climate models describe the Earth on a grid that is currently limited by computer capabilities to a resolution of no finer than 60 miles. (The distance from New York City to Washington, D.C., is thus covered by only four grid cells.) But processes such as cloud formation, turbulence and rain all happen on much smaller scales. These critical processes then appear in the model only through adjustable assumptions that specify, for example, how the average cloud cover depends on a grid box's average temperature and humidity. In a given model, dozens of such assumptions must be adjusted ("tuned," in the jargon of modelers) to reproduce both current observations and imperfectly known historical records.

    We often hear that there is a "scientific consensus" about climate change. But as far as the computer models go, there isn't a useful consensus at the level of detail relevant to assessing human influences. Since 1990, the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, or IPCC, has periodically surveyed the state of climate science. Each successive report from that endeavor, with contributions from thousands of scientists around the world, has come to be seen as the definitive assessment of climate science at the time of its issue.


    There is little doubt in the scientific community that continually growing amounts of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, due largely to carbon-dioxide emissions from the conventional use of fossil fuels, are influencing the climate. Pictured, an estuary in Patgonia. Gallery Stock
    For the latest IPCC report (September 2013), its Working Group I, which focuses on physical science, uses an ensemble of some 55 different models. Although most of these models are tuned to reproduce the gross features of the Earth's climate, the marked differences in their details and projections reflect all of the limitations that I have described. For example:

    • The models differ in their descriptions of the past century's global average surface temperature by more than three times the entire warming recorded during that time. Such mismatches are also present in many other basic climate factors, including rainfall, which is fundamental to the atmosphere's energy balance. As a result, the models give widely varying descriptions of the climate's inner workings. Since they disagree so markedly, no more than one of them can be right.

    • Although the Earth's average surface temperature rose sharply by 0.9 degree Fahrenheit during the last quarter of the 20th century, it has increased much more slowly for the past 16 years, even as the human contribution to atmospheric carbon dioxide has risen by some 25%. This surprising fact demonstrates directly that natural influences and variability are powerful enough to counteract the present warming influence exerted by human activity.

    Yet the models famously fail to capture this slowing in the temperature rise. Several dozen different explanations for this failure have been offered, with ocean variability most likely playing a major role. But the whole episode continues to highlight the limits of our modeling.

    • The models roughly describe the shrinking extent of Arctic sea ice observed over the past two decades, but they fail to describe the comparable growth of Antarctic sea ice, which is now at a record high.

    • The models predict that the lower atmosphere in the tropics will absorb much of the heat of the warming atmosphere. But that "hot spot" has not been confidently observed, casting doubt on our understanding of the crucial feedback of water vapor on temperature.

    • Even though the human influence on climate was much smaller in the past, the models do not account for the fact that the rate of global sea-level rise 70 years ago was as large as what we observe today—about one foot per century.

    • A crucial measure of our knowledge of feedbacks is climate sensitivity—that is, the warming induced by a hypothetical doubling of carbon-dioxide concentration. Today's best estimate of the sensitivity (between 2.7 degrees Fahrenheit and 8.1 degrees Fahrenheit) is no different, and no more certain, than it was 30 years ago. And this is despite an heroic research effort costing billions of dollars.

    These and many other open questions are in fact described in the IPCC research reports, although a detailed and knowledgeable reading is sometimes required to discern them. They are not "minor" issues to be "cleaned up" by further research. Rather, they are deficiencies that erode confidence in the computer projections. Work to resolve these shortcomings in climate models should be among the top priorities for climate research.

    Yet a public official reading only the IPCC's "Summary for Policy Makers" would gain little sense of the extent or implications of these deficiencies. These are fundamental challenges to our understanding of human impacts on the climate, and they should not be dismissed with the mantra that "climate science is settled."

    While the past two decades have seen progress in climate science, the field is not yet mature enough to usefully answer the difficult and important questions being asked of it. This decidedly unsettled state highlights what should be obvious: Understanding climate, at the level of detail relevant to human influences, is a very, very difficult problem.

    We can and should take steps to make climate projections more useful over time. An international commitment to a sustained global climate observation system would generate an ever-lengthening record of more precise observations. And increasingly powerful computers can allow a better understanding of the uncertainties in our models, finer model grids and more sophisticated descriptions of the processes that occur within them. The science is urgent, since we could be caught flat-footed if our understanding does not improve more rapidly than the climate itself changes.

    A transparent rigor would also be a welcome development, especially given the momentous political and policy decisions at stake. That could be supported by regular, independent, "red team" reviews to stress-test and challenge the projections by focusing on their deficiencies and uncertainties; that would certainly be the best practice of the scientific method. But because the natural climate changes over decades, it will take many years to get the data needed to confidently isolate and quantify the effects of human influences.

    Policy makers and the public may wish for the comfort of certainty in their climate science. But I fear that rigidly promulgating the idea that climate science is "settled" (or is a "hoax") demeans and chills the scientific enterprise, r****ding its progress in these important matters. Uncertainty is a prime mover and motivator of science and must be faced head-on. It should not be confined to hushed sidebar conversations at academic conferences.

    Society's choices in the years ahead will necessarily be based on uncertain knowledge of future climates. That uncertainty need not be an excuse for inaction. There is well-justified prudence in accelerating the development of low-emissions technologies and in cost-effective energy-efficiency measures.

    But climate strategies beyond such "no regrets" efforts carry costs, risks and questions of effectiveness, so nonscientific factors inevitably enter the decision. These include our tolerance for risk and the priorities that we assign to economic development, poverty reduction, environmental quality, and intergenerational and geographical equity.

    Individuals and countries can legitimately disagree about these matters, so the discussion should not be about "believing" or "denying" the science. Despite the statements of numerous scientific societies, the scientific community cannot claim any special expertise in addressing issues related to humanity's deepest goals and values. The political and diplomatic spheres are best suited to debating and resolving such questions, and misrepresenting the current state of climate science does nothing to advance that effort.

    Any serious discussion of the changing climate must begin by acknowledging not only the scientific certainties but also the uncertainties, especially in projecting the future. Recognizing those limits, rather than ignoring them, will lead to a more sober and ultimately more productive discussion of climate change and climate policies. To do otherwise is a great disservice to climate science itself.[/rquoter]

    Dr. Koonin was undersecretary for science in the Energy Department during President Barack Obama's first term and is currently director of the Center for Urban Science and Progress at New York University. His previous positions include professor of theoretical physics and provost at Caltech, as well as chief scientist of BP, where his work focused on renewable and low-carbon energy technologies.
     
  13. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    20,066
    Likes Received:
    17,217
    [QUOTE =Bobbythegreat;9237286]Absolutely, just like everyone knows, correlation equals causation.[/QUOTE]

    So your thing is, until we can dig a tunnel a mile underground and show the rocks, the companies are in the clear? It must be pretty convenient when you are the only person with anything remotely like the technology to prove your innocence of guilt.

    If it happened once, or twice, I could agree random correlation. When it happens over and over? Eventually a statistician will show that the chance of it randomly correlating over and over approaches 0, the same way that epidemiologists showed that smoking isn't just randomly correlated with lung cancer.

    Keep in mind, there's still never been direct "proof" that any single case of lung cancer was caused by smoking.

    I guess you can push your cash cow out a couple of decades and then come up with a settlement for like one one thousandth of your total profits and you will have "won".
     
  14. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    72,094
    Likes Received:
    37,037
    Where you are wrong is that they have "proven" the cause of numerous incidents of well contamination, some are caused by the gas companies, usually flaws with the walls of the gas well are the culprit when it is related to drilling. Other times, which is the majority of the time, it is natural pockets of methane that migrate towards the surface and end up in the water well. Even in those scenarios you can make a case that the seismic activity from drilling helped the process along, but because it's a natural process it's hard to pin on someone else.

    Again though, none of that has anything to do with fracking because you have the same situation any time you drill. Now if your plan is to ban drilling of any kind.....well you probably wouldn't like the consequences.
     
  15. Northside Storm

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    LOL

    so---you rely on one Quora user who works in the field to tell you that fracking is settled science, yet you can't accept the claims of the vast majority of scientific experts in the field when it comes to climate change?

    Look up Robert Jackson's research on fracking if you think anything is settled.
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Amiga

    Amiga Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    26,482
    Likes Received:
    25,205
    Rant <> Science.

    But let's just said he end up being correct. So some well aren't safe and can leak.

    Taking his own example, if a house has plumbing leaks, wouldn't it be wise to fix those leaks before running electrical wires all over the house?

    So if wells aren't safe, wouldn't you NOT want to frack until those wells are fixed up?

    Sound like at least a requirement for fracking is to first make sure the wells can withstand the pressure of it.

    But back to reality. Rant <> Science.
     
  17. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    20,066
    Likes Received:
    17,217
    In 2005, Congress exempted fracking from both the Clean Water Act, Safe Drinking Water Act and just about every other act dealing with protecting water, so I guess this is a moot point and they can contaminate the hell out of everybody's water and not have to worry about responsibility.

    Maybe someone could explain why Congress would feel the need to do this, if this was just all made up BS?
     
  18. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    72,094
    Likes Received:
    37,037
    That's irrelevant information used in an attempt to poison the well. Prove that the process of fracking is causing well contamination if that's your take don't just rely on innuendo and bias-inducing rhetorical devices.
     
  19. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    20,066
    Likes Received:
    17,217
    It is very relevant, even if you believe it inconsequential. You're the one who said, "prove it". There is no reason for anybody to try, so it will never happen. Congrats. You set up a threshold for culpability that is practically unobtainable. Nobody is going to spend however many millions on research just so bobbythegreat might change his mind.
     
    #39 Ottomaton, Sep 22, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2014
  20. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    72,094
    Likes Received:
    37,037
    Yes, I said prove it, if you are going to assign blame, you have to prove they are responsible. Isn't that reasonable?

    I pointed out earlier that they actually have investigated a large number of incidents of well contamination and most of the time the culprit was a naturally occurring pocket of methane that worked its way up to the water table and into a water well. Others that were related to gas drilling were caused by cracks in the gas well itself and not related to hydraulic fracturing. Some other incidents of allegedly contaminated water wells turned out to be situations where the well was merely "shaken up" causing sediments and other things that were always in the bottom of the well to cloud up the water.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now