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trump and NATO

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewRoxFan, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    Seems worth having its own thread with trump's meetings with NATO. trump has been critical of NATO from the get go, calling it obsolete and complaining that other NATO members are not paying their fair share while the U.S. is spending too much. The early meetings have been confrontational, with trump repeating these claims and then accusing Germany of being a pawn for Russia (LOL).



     
  2. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    Trump in specific and Republicans in general have a long tradition of Accusing people of doing things they themselves are doing
    For a while it was them getting caught doing deviant sexual stuff in public . . . or simply being closeted homosexuals.

    Rocket River
     
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  3. adoo

    adoo Member

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    in a 97-2 vote (including yes votes from Turtle Face McConnell, on a motion to re-affirm US's commitment to NATO, the US Senate took a swipe at Trump's ambivalence about the alliance. the vote came the same day Trump arrived in Brussell for the NATO summit.

    Sen. Jack Reed, the Rhode Island Democrat who authored the nonbinding motion, spoke on the Senate floor.
    "No one should ever doubt the United States' resolve in meeting its commitments to the mutual defense of the NATO alliance," Reed said. "Unfortunately, this motion has become necessary because some of our closest allies have come to question the US commitment to collective self-defense. President Trump has at times called the alliance 'obsolete.' Our allies are starting to wonder whether they can rely on the United States to come to their defense in a crisis."

    In an interview, Sen. John Thune of South Dakota, the third-ranking Senate GOP leader, explained why the motion was needed.
    "I think it is important that we demonstrate a strong commitment to the NATO alliance," Thune said. "I mean this is something that has served freedom-loving countries well for half a century."
    The motion also called on the administration to "urgently prioritize the completion of a comprehensive, whole-of-government strategy to counter malign activities of Russia that seek to undermine faith in democratic institutions in the United States and around the world."


     
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  4. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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  5. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Here are some facts about NATO and also about Putin's Russia.

    1. All nations in NATO of been increasing their spending the last 4 years. By 2024 they will all be at 2% of the GDP.
    2. The United States has never sent in troops as part of Article 5 mutual defense of any nation in Europe.
    3. The United States did invoke Article 5 mutual defense clause to protect it after 2001. European allies have sent in troops and still have them there fighting and dying for the defense of the United States.
    4. NATO pays money for the bases the United States has throughout Europe.
    5. It would cost more money for the United States to withdraw our troops from Europe than it does to keep them there.
    6. Those bases make our nation more powerful because they increase the effective range of aircraft and other military movements and operations.
    7. NATO isn't a favor that the United States is doing for Europe. It is beneficial to the United States. Only European nations have sent troops into combat to help the United States. It has never been used the other way where the U.S. sends troops in to help its allies.

    Russian facts.
    1. They have twice invaded nations in the past ten years.
    2. They are militarily aggressive.
    3. They have attempted to alter and damage our democracy during elections.
    4. They have a goal of trying to weaken NATO.


    So that brings up some questions. Why is Trump doing what Putin wants? What does the U.S. get in return for antagonizing its NATO allies?

    It could be argued that the U.S. gets more from NATO than Europeans get from the U.S. What Trump is doing makes no sense. What is the reason he is doing everything that Putin would want even when it isn't in the interest of the United States?
     
  6. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    Gee, the fact checkers followed trump to Europe...

     
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  7. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    Birds of a feather flock together...

     
  8. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    This is a spit in the face of the Canadians, Germans and British who fought and died serving along side us in pointless wars WE created.
     
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  9. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    trump continues to show he doesn't know how NATO works...

     
  10. mtbrays

    mtbrays Contributing Member
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    President Trump's ignorance should be a source of deep shame for this country. Resident Trump fans, how do you defend this? How do you defend these lies regarding Germany (Angela Merkel grew up in East Germany... she knows more than than President Trump what Russian aggression looks like)? How do you ignore that friction among NATO countries has been a long sought-after Russian goal and that our president is facilitating it for no clear reason?

    I'm not asking you to recite something about "paying their fair share." I'm asking why this is good strategy and why upsetting out allies to curry favor with a murderous ex-KGB despot is in the United States' interest. I truly do not get it.
     
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  11. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Exactly. Both Bush and Obama spoke to NATO allies about paying more towards NATO. That is fine to do. But at NATO summits that should be done in private so NATO can present a strong unified front.

    That being said, the European nations have all been increasing their spending for the last 4 years. By 2024 they will all be at the agreed upon 2% figure.

    This behavior doesn't benefit the United States or its European allies, but it does benefit Russia.
     
  12. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    2% is the minimum dues required, almost no one other than the US actually pays their fair share....and that has been part of what Trump has been criticizing NATO countries for. It's BS that other than the US, the UK, and Estonia (I'll even give Poland a pass for coming REALLY close to 2%) no NATO country was putting in the minimum 2% of GDP dues despite EVERY other NATO country besides the US and Canada being at much greater risk from Russia than the US.

    You write about how 6 years from now they'll finally be doing what they should have been doing all along but that doesn't excuse it and they deserve criticism till that happens.

    What would happen to NATO if the US cut their contributions from 3.78% of GDP down to 1.26% of GDP like Germany? It's BS that the US always has to do the heavy lifting and these other countries refuse to even do their share. Of all the things that Trump has gone on about, that's the thing I agree with him the most about. Given that nearly all of NATO have been slacking, they deserve to be slapped around till they are shamed into doing the right thing.
     
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  13. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    I've said all along that it is fine to ask for NATO allies to pay more. I've stated that in almost every single post. Both Bush and Obama requested that from their European allies. For the last 4 years, the nations have been increasing the amount they pay. It was already improving.

    Either way, it helps both Europe and the United States to have a stronger NATO. Handling the petty monetary differences in private and remain unified in public so as to make a show of unified strength.

    Alos, it isn't as if the U.S. is doing all of their heavy liftings. They have sent in troops to defend the United States. Their troops have fought and died in the defense of the U.S.

    How strong and able to act would our military be without naval, airforce, and army bases in Spain, Italy, etc.? They pay the United States to have those bases there. They are helping us and themselves at the same time with that. The goals of NATO are the same for the U.S. as they are for Europe. It isn't like we are serving their goals but not our own.
     
  14. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    We really are "doing them a favor" though, those countries in Europe have far more to fear from Russia than the US does. You can say the US has a vested interest in helping Europe, but not nearly to the extent that Europe has a vested interest in defending themselves....and that just makes it worse to see the US doing all of the heavy lifting.

    As to a stronger NATO, IMO if you get on those countries and publicly shame them into doing the right thing you are creating a stronger NATO. Some of those countries rely on NATO to be just about their entire national defense and they still refuse to chip in 2%. That's just unacceptable....and yes, I know we agree on this point.
     
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  15. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    What I have begun wondering is who in the White House is feeding this pro-Russian nonsense to trump, who gleefully lies in front of the European leaders sitting at the same table? It's gotten way past bizarre, way past trump simply being incredibly ignorant. Someone, or more than one person, close to trump is giving him this garbage to say in an effort to weaken NATO, weaken the European Union, and weaken the United States, while strengthening Vladimir Putin and Russia. This garbage isn't spewing from trump's mouth because he's babbling inanely. It's coming from somewhere.
     
  16. Torn n Frayed

    Torn n Frayed Member

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  17. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    Must be a key part of every trump cabinet member's job... "ignore what the cheeto colored idiot says..."

     
  18. mtbrays

    mtbrays Contributing Member
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    Judging by the tone of your post, I should've known that Bubby was arguing against the purpose of NATO and tacitly supporting Trump's ignorant hissy fit.
     
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  19. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    You think so? Perhaps you should try thinking again kiddo, you're embarrassing yourself.
     
  20. Astrodome

    Astrodome Member
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    I think we have the talent and skill to make a semifinal some day but Trump just brings the whole federation down. There is no excuse for not making a world cup and heads should roll. Starting with Trump.
     

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