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Socialism Is So Hot Right Now. Thank Bernie Sanders DSA Houston

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by glynch, May 23, 2017.

  1. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    This was an awesomely informative post.

    I usually ignore conversations that compares the us and another country's system cause I don't trust the source

    Thanks
     
  2. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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  3. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    With people travelling more it is harder for even many of the consumers of Fox and Friends to not be aware that Americans suffer needlessly for lack of affordable healthcare, vacations, free or debt free college, smaller old age retirement checks.

    As far as tallnover's original links that he claims Sander's plans costs 3 trillion, and would raise the average American's taxes give it a brief skim. Tallnvr just lied or perhaps just posted a link to look respectable and relied on Fox and Friends or a right winger on facebook for a 3 trillion figure and a raise of the average familiy's taxes tremendously ($10 to $25,000). Also the Brooking's report he cited, but probably never read included in "Sander's Plan, and the numbers they talk about included 1)government funded single payer, 2)long term care, 3)free tutition 4),family leave, and 5)expanded social security.

    Tallnvr failed to include from the summary
    The combination of the Sanders tax and transfer proposals would increase average
    household income, net of taxes paid and transfers received, by nearly $4,300 in 2017.
    Households in the bottom 95 percent of the income distribution
    would, on average, receive a net
    benefit while the highest income households would pay more in new taxes than they would
    receive in additional government transfers. The combined plan would increase annual federal
    budget deficits by $1.8 trillion over the next 10 years Click on the first link then see Whole report page 2/12
    http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publ...rnie-sanderss-tax-and-transfer-proposals/full

    -
     
  4. shorerider

    shorerider Member

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    Yeah sure - I was fortunate to have experienced socialism for some time to see the good and bad in it. To me the American way is superior in many ways. Being a business owner, I see the major upsides to a more capitalist society, and Americans have every right to be proud of their collective work ethic because no where on the planet have I seen a more industrious, innovative people. I don't think it's close to be honest.

    The socialism thing doesn't work for many things in my opinion, but healthcare just doesn't apply. I can't overemphasize the relief from not thinking about money at all when the need for any sort of medical care arises. Funny enough, for general doctor visits, (GPs), you actually have more freedom up there than you do down here. You can go to any GP anywhere. And they are just walk-in, usually I wouldn't have to wait more than 20 minutes to see someone. If it's longer, they just tell you the time to come back so you don't wait around all day.

    Now, for things like work ethic, it was just horrible. Americans wipe the floor in terms of work ethic. Also, funny enough car insurance was run by the government. It was so terrible. To not have competition in an area like this was just god awful. For some reason though, with healthcare it just worked. The upsides definitely outweigh the downsides. For instance, for some of my post-op surgeries, I shared a room with someone else - big deal, no private room. I just care about getting good care and being out of the hospital as quick as I can and never, ever seeing a bill. I'm not looking for the Ritz Carlton with a personal nurse, etc. The care itself and the confidence in the doctors was just as good as what I've received in the States.

    Sure you might have a longer wait time for some non-life threatening condition, but heck fearing coming down with an illness or condition because of a potential massive financial hit outweighs any downsides by a longshot in my opinion. I mean, who the heck wants to think about money issues when you are sick?? As long as you get quality care, who wouldn't want it? I think I do get why people are hesitant to this idea though, because the unknown can be scary, especially with misinformation that can be easily passed around these days.
     
  5. tallanvor

    tallanvor Contributing Member

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    BruceAndre likes this.
  6. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    The Wall Street Journal Editorial Board's piece this morning:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/whos-afraid-of-socialism-11549498364?mod=hp_opin_pos1

    Who’s Afraid of Socialism?
    The new Democratic agenda sure looks like government control over the means of production.

    750 Comments
    By The Editorial Board
    Feb. 6, 2019 7:12 p.m. ET

    Now that Donald Trump has criticized the “new calls to adopt socialism in this country,” Democrats and the media are already protesting that the socialist label doesn’t apply to them. But what are they afraid of—the label or their own ideas? The biggest political story of 2019 is that Democrats are embracing policies that include government control of ever-larger chunks of the private American economy.

    Merriam-Webster defines socialism as “any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.”

    The U.S. may not be Venezuela, but consider the Democratic agenda that is emerging from Congress and the party’s presidential contenders. You decide if the proposals meet the definition of socialism.

    Medicare for All. Bernie Sanders’ plan, which has been endorsed by 16 other Senators, would replace all private health insurance in the U.S. with a federally administered single-payer health-care program. Government would decide what care to deliver, which drugs to pay for, and how much to pay doctors and hospitals. Private insurance would be banned.

    As Senator Kamala Harris put it recently on CNN, “the idea is that everyone gets access to medical care, and you don’t have to go through the process of going through an insurance company, having them give you approval, going through the paperwork, all of the delay that may require. Who of us has not had that situation, where you’ve got to wait for approval, and the doctor says, well, I don’t know if your insurance company is going to cover this? Let’s eliminate all of that. Let’s move on.”

    If replacing private insurance with government control isn’t socialism, what is?

    The Green New Deal. This idea, endorsed by 40 House Democrats and several Democratic presidential candidates, would require that the U.S. be carbon neutral within 10 years. Non-carbon sources provide only 11% of U.S. energy today, so this would mean a complete remake of American electric power, transportation and manufacturing.

    Oh, and as imagined by Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, all of this would be planned by a Select Committee For a Green New Deal. Soviet five-year plans were more modest.

    A guaranteed government job for all. To assist in this 10-year transformation of society, the Green New Deal’s authors would “provide all members of our society, across all regions and all communities, the opportunity, training and education to be a full and equal participant in the transition, including through a job guarantee program to assure a living wage job to every person who wants one.”

    This is no longer a fringe idea. The Center for American Progress, Barack Obama’s think tank, supports a government job for everyone “to counter the effects of reduced bargaining power, technical change, globalization,” and presidential candidate Kirsten Gillibrand tweeted her support for it as an alternative to tax reform.

    A new system for corporate control. Senator Elizabeth Warren wants a new federal charter for businesses with more than $1 billion in annual revenue that would make companies answer to more than shareholders. Employees would elect 40% of directors, who would be obliged to consider “benefits” beyond returns to the owners. This radical redesign of corporate governance would give politicians and their interest groups new influence over private business decisions and assets.

    Vastly higher taxes. These ideas would require much more government revenue, and Democrats are eagerly proposing ways to raise it. Mr. Sanders wants to raise the top death tax rate to 77%. Ms. Ocasio-Cortez wants a new 70% tax rate on high incomes, which is supported by the Democratic intelligentsia. The House Ways and Means Committee is working on a plan to raise the payroll tax to 14.8% from 12.4% on incomes above $400,000.

    Never to be outdone on the left, Ms. Warren wants a new 2% “wealth tax” on assets above $50 million and 3% above $1 billion, including assets held abroad. France recently junked its wealth tax because it was so counterproductive, and such a tax has never been levied in America. This is government confiscation merely because someone has earned or saved more money than someone else. Socialism?

    These are merely the most prominent proposals. There are many others, such as Ms. Warren’s plan to set up a government-owned generic drug maker that would inevitably put private companies out of business because its cost of capital would be zero.

    ***
    Some readers might think this is all so extreme it could never happen. But presidential candidates don’t propose ideas they think will hurt them politically. The leftward lurch of Democratic voters, especially the young, means the party could nominate the most left-wing presidential candidate in U.S. history. If other Democratic candidates oppose any or all of this, we’d like to hear them.

    The American public deserves to have a debate about all this, lest it sleepwalk into a socialist future it doesn’t want. Credit to Mr. Trump for teeing it up.

    Appeared in the February 7, 2019, print edition.​
     
  7. cml750

    cml750 Member

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  8. pirc1

    pirc1 Contributing Member

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    If the US ever close to socialism, it will be because of Trump. Every action have an opposite and equal reaction. These two above are the counter to the tea party people. I know you think tea party was great, hope you like it in the future when more and more Sanders shows up.
     
  9. Realjad

    Realjad Contributing Member

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    Because the 'socialism' practiced in northern Europe isn't the real socialism that you all are fighting for. A perfect example is liberal socialists showing activism for a $15 minimum wage.. see, none of your beloved 'socialists european countries' (the ones you tout that isn't actually real socialism) would go for that.

    The truth is your socialist views, assuming your views are like Bernies, are much more similar to socialist countries like Venezuela than the nordic model displayed in northern Europe.
     
  10. pirc1

    pirc1 Contributing Member

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    First, I am not fight for socialism, especially as practiced in Central America, I am not sure 15 dollar per hour minimum wages would work. However, I am for socialized medial insurance as practiced in Europe.

    I have always been a moderate and practical person, it is the right extremes that is bring out the left extremes, I expect will will have more tea party and Bernie bros in this country in the future, this should be fun.
     
  11. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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  12. RocketsLegend

    RocketsLegend Member

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    Trump was the reaction to Obama
     
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  13. Nook

    Nook Member

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    The democrats are not socialists, just like the republicans are not fascists.

    There are radicals on the edge of the party that would love to stray more towards socialism, and the democrats would be smart to not take that route.
     
    Space Ghost and body slam like this.
  14. BruceAndre

    BruceAndre Member

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    How does "travelling more" and "lack of affordable vacations" go together? It would seem to be one or the other. (Yes I know people travel for business)

    And why does anyone have the right to an "affordable vacation"?
     
  15. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    We are already a social democracy.

    Social programs in the USA.

    The Military, the police, the fire department, public schools, government - all are socialist constructs.

    Socialist democracies are rooted in capitalism, just not runaway capitalism - all we need is socialized medicine and we are good to go.

    DD
     
  16. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Contributing Member

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    Thanks Captain Obvious.
     
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  17. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    Well, someone has to be, because too many dumbasses are running around b****ing about socialism when they really mean communism.

    DD
     
  18. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Contributing Member

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    You are correct. However both sides are missing the point.

    We should be discussing affordable healthcare first, not discussing socializing a bad structure before correcting its flaws.

    The same applies to advanced education.
     
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  19. pirc1

    pirc1 Contributing Member

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    Oh that Muslim non citizen extremist lefty, yup, it all make sense now.
     
  20. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    It's amazing that in 2019 Americans are still fighting for socialized healthcare - a WIDELY popular system - while the 6 giant media arms take a cut - from those robbing Americans through the healthcare system - to devise the illusion that there's a debate going on.

    This is the equivalent of middle eastern governments creating the illusion of a debate about whether democracy is the best model on the hilarious basis that dictatorships act more quickly and decisively in making and correcting large goals. Then the media arms - taking a cut from the government - devise some charts and debates with people who don't understand democracy to maintain the illusion that this is a real idea. Meanwhile, most people want them the F out of there, and we have to hear foreigners repeat this nonsense to us as if it's our idea.

    It's all nonsense guys. A bunch of f'ing nonsense. If everyone who believes in socialized care went out and said "I don't give a ****, just do it, I want it" the sheer number of people out in the streets would get it done. Someone has to pop the titty out of these crooks' mouths, they've gotten fat and lazy off your money and they keep telling you to wait and debate these poorly thought out ideas rather than act on something that has proven better in 9 out of 10 cases.
     

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