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Should Neo-Nazis be allowed to march?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewYorker, Oct 16, 2005.

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Should Neo-Nazis be allowed to march even if it results in violence?

  1. Yes - this is American, anyone can express their beliefs no matter how inflammatory they might be

    97 vote(s)
    70.3%
  2. No, that's ridiculous

    38 vote(s)
    27.5%
  3. I don't know

    3 vote(s)
    2.2%
  1. Nolen

    Nolen Contributing Member

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    New Yorker- very good post, I understand you much better now. Thanks.


    Regarding intimidation- it takes two parties to make intimidation happen. There are some (rare, fearless) people who wouldn't feel intimidated if there was some guy right up in their face threatening violence. There are others who would feel afraid, intimidated and violated watching a protest that happened three states away.

    Both parties are responsible for their actions and reactions. I know this point of view may perhaps be unpopular, but the frame of reference that I'm reading here on intimidation puts all burden upon the aggressor. When you enact laws that puts all fault upon an 'aggressor', then you've opened a massive Pandora's box because anybody who feels like a victim can point a finger and bam- convictions left and right. You're giving too much power to the people reacting to the aggressor.

    Take your punching example, New Yorker- that is very dangerous stuff. There may be judges out there who may excuse violent behavior on an individual basis if they think there is a threshold of verbal provocation, but I'd like to think that for the most part in a civilized society, there's no excuse for physically attacking somebody. I might be provoked to do something like that, but if I'm put in jail, I'm not going to pout and say I did nothing wrong. I may choose to act that way, but there are consequences for physically attacking someone in America, and I think that's a good thing.

    If a law were successfully passed that said there is a verbal threshold upon which it's okay to assault someone, all hell would break loose. Anybody who thinks themself a victim of verbal assault, or who wished to pose as one, could attack someone.
     
  2. geeimsobored

    geeimsobored Contributing Member

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    Simply put my post was a slippery slope argument. As nice as your intentions are, someone will use it for bad and unjust purposes.
     
  3. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Contributing Member

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    I think in this specific incident, one could make a case that there should've been a "time and place" restriction on the neo-Nazis, and the decision to enable them to walk right through a minority neighborhood was probably a poor one, since their intentional presence in this specific place could be seen as 'fighting words'.

    I think NewYorker has a point here, but generally speaking, I don't support limiting free speech of any group.
     
  4. NewYorker

    NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

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    I agree with you that establishing a "verbal thresold" would be at best difficult to legislate, and at worst create more legal mess. But I think in situations where someone is clearly provoking someone - and this would be at the discretion of the judge of course - then that has to be taken into account when the provocateer is filing assault charges for getting punched in the face. It may not justify it, but perhaps should be a mitigating factor. But this is actually covered under "fighting words" and requires no further legislation.

    Personally, I have been in a situation where someone has stood inches from my face yelling slurs and all sorts of things and I stood there very patiently and said not a single word - but yeah, my fist was clenched waiting for him to make contact of any kind. Eventually he walked off, and I'm glad there wasn't a fight - but let me tell you how hard it was and how close i was to letting a fist fly. I just don't know legally where that line is. We all know if someone starts offending the ones we love there's a good chance we'll lose self-restraint. I don't know the right answer - but I'm happy we live in a country where dignity still matters and generally racial intoreance is viewed as morally reprehensible.
     
  5. NewYorker

    NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

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    If we are vigilent regarding its application, that would not be an outcome - in fact, from what I've learned in the discussion on this board, it appears that the march was not constitutionally protected under the current laws of our land - and for that I am glad.

    People will always try to use something for bad and unjust purpose - just as Neo-Nazis twisted a constitutional freedom meant to protect people from oppression into a tool to aid their own form of oppression. It's our jobs to make sure that such abuses do not occur.
     
  6. NewYorker

    NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

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    I have to say, it's actually refreshing to see how much passion people have for the bill of rights. This was a great discussion.
     
  7. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Contributing Member

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    I would die for it, no questions asked.
     
  8. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Contributing Member

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    Thanks and its good to know that my posts appeal to the insane. ;)
     
  9. littlefish_220

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    I don't think neo-Nazi march should be allowed, and I don't think free expression is absolute here either.

    For many other issues, it may be offensive to a certain group of people. However, it is very debatebale and each side has solid pros and cons to talk about. For Nazi, it has a proven record of hell and I believe the vast majority of people are highly against it.

    It is not the denial of freedom, it is the denial of destruction of freedom.



     
  10. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1231684&page=1

    Young Singers Spread Racist Hate

    Duo Considered the Olsen Twins of the White Nationalist Movement
    [​IMG]

    Oct. 20, 2005 — - Thirteen-year-old twins Lamb and Lynx Gaede have one album out, another on the way, a music video, and lots of fans.

    They may remind you another famous pair of singers, the Olsen Twins, and the girls say they like that. But unlike the Olsens, who built a media empire on their fun-loving, squeaky-clean image, Lamb and Lynx are cultivating a much darker personna. They are white nationalists and use their talents to preach a message of hate.

    Known as "Prussian Blue" -- a nod to their German heritage and bright blue eyes -- the girls from Bakersfield, Calif., have been performing songs about white nationalism before all-white crowds since they were nine.

    "We're proud of being white, we want to keep being white," said Lynx. "We want our people to stay white ... we don't want to just be, you know, a big muddle. We just want to preserve our race."

    Lynx and Lamb have been nurtured on racist beliefs since birth by their mother April. "They need to have the background to understand why certain things are happening," said April, a stay-at-home mom who no longer lives with the twins' father. "I'm going to give them, give them my opinion just like any, any parent would."

    April home-schools the girls, teaching them her own unique perspective on everything from current to historical events. In addition, April's father surrounds the family with symbols of his beliefs -- specifically the Nazi swastika. It appears on his belt buckle, on the side of his pick-up truck and he's even registered it as his cattle brand with the Bureau of Livestock Identification.

    "Because it's provocative," explains April of the cattle brand, "to him he thinks it's important as a symbol of freedom of speech that he can use it as his cattle brand."

    Teaching Hate

    Songs like "Sacrifice" -- a tribute to Nazi Rudolf Hess, Hitler's deputy Fuhrer -- clearly show the effect of the girls' upbringing. The lyrics praise Hess as a "man of peace who wouldn't give up."

    "It really breaks my heart to see those two girls spewing out that kind of garbage," said Ted Shaw, civil rights advocate and president of the NAACP's Legal Defense Fund -- though Shaw points out that the girls aren't espousing their own opinions but ones they're being taught.

    On that point, April Gaede and Ted Shaw apparently agree.

    "Well, all children pretty much espouse their parents' attitudes," she said. "We're white nationalists and of course that's a part of our life and I'm going to share that part of my life with my children."

    Since they began singing, the girls have become such a force in the white nationalist movement, that David Duke -- the former presidential candidate, one-time Ku-Klux-Klan grand wizard and outspoken white supremacist -- uses the twins to draw a crowd.

    Prussian Blue supporter Erich Gliebe, operator of one of the nation's most notorious hate music labels, Resistance Records, hopes younger performers like Lynx and Lamb will help expand the base of the White Nationalist cause.

    "Eleven and 12 years old," he said, "I think that's the perfect age to start grooming kids and instill in them a strong racial identity."

    Gliebe, who targets young, mainstream white rockers at music festivals like this past summer's "Ozzfest," says he uses music to get his message out.

    But with names like Blue-Eyed Devils and Angry Aryans, these tunes are far more extreme than the ones sung by Lamb and Lynx.

    "We give them a CD, we give them something as simple as a stick, they can go to our Web site and see other music and download some of our music," said Gliebe. "To me, that's the best propaganda tool for our youth."

    A Taste for Hate

    Gliebe says he hopes that as younger racist listeners mature, so will their tastes for harder, angrier music like that of Shawn Sugg of Max Resist.

    One of Sugg's songs is a fantasy piece about a possible future racial war that goes: "Let the cities burn, let the streets run red, if you ain't white you'll be dead."

    "I'd like to compare it to gangsta rap," explained Sugg, "where they glorify, you know, shooting n****** and pimping whores."

    Sugg shrugs off criticism that music like his should not be handed out to schoolyard children, arguing that "it's just music, it's not like you're handing out AK-47s."

    Perhaps not, but Shaw says it's the ideas in the music that are dangerous.

    "When you talk about people being dead if they're not white," said Shaw, "I don't think there is much question that that is hateful."

    A Place to Call Home

    Despite the success of Prussian Blue and bands like Max Resist within the White Nationalism movement, most Americans don't accept their racist message.

    Like many children across the country, Lamb and Lynx decided to help the victims of Hurricane Katrina -- the white ones.

    The girls' donations were handed out by a White Nationalist organization who also left a pamphlet promoting their group and beliefs -- some of the intended recipients were more than a little displeased.

    After a day of trying, the supplies ended up with few takers, dumped at a local shop that sells Confederate memorabilia.

    Last month, the girls were scheduled to perform at the local county fair in their hometown. But when some people in the community protested, Prussian Blue was removed from the line-up.

    But even before that, April had decided that Bakersfield was not "white" enough, so she sold her home, and hopes that she and the girls can find an all-white community in the Pacific Northwest.

    Copyright © 2005 ABC News Internet Ventures
     
  11. Nolen

    Nolen Contributing Member

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    :eek: HOLY SHIZNET!!! :eek:

    I had no idea this stuff existed. I find this even scarier than demonstrations, frankly, because it's more submersive and tries to blend with mainstream culture. Man, I'm blown away.
     
  12. NewYorker

    NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

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    They are kinda cute though...

    This stuff isn't scary and doesn't bother me one bit. So long as they don't cross the line of intimidating people and striking fear (such as what the marches do) - I'm fine with it.

    Although, if they targeted it towards Mulsims, they'd probably create a monstrous contraversy...and if they decided to say something against Muslims while on a trip to Holland, they might get assasinated.
     
  13. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    I agree with your recent points, but I think there's a balance towards using legislation to solve human problems.

    What if after verbal provokation I broke the person's jaw or put him in a vegetative state? The problem with mental abuse is that it's unmeasurable and inconsistent. Songs have different meanings for different people. This would only allow craftier bigots to get off in trial while the stupid and more obvious bigots get bruised up. Plus, it depends on the personal disposition of the judges and prosecutors which, if the Death Penalty is any indication, could make the most well intentioned law stripped of its original legislative meaning.
     
  14. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    It appears this thread has relevance more than ever. Would those who say Nazis should be allowed to march this weekend in American cities as an act of free speech and peaceful assembly....or as an act to incite a race war now that Trump has given them a yellow light to proceed.
     
  15. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    Leftists clearly hate our constitution and our country's traditional values and historical accomplishments.

    It is not Nazis that we need to be primarily concerned with here, people.
     
  16. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    Let them assemble and chant their racist slogans -- but unarmed. Anyone present, for or against, with a weapon of any kind should be arrested apart from police.

    Could also add a law that protesters and counter-protesters must be a certain distance apart -- but not sure how that could be practically enforced.

    To me, that's the most reasonable compromise between protecting free speech and protecting public safety.
     
  17. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    I agree. And that sounds like what the city of Boston has planned for the Nazi/KKK march scheduled to occur in Boston today around lunchtime.
    ‘Stay Away From The Common’ During Boston Free Speech Rally, Walsh Urges

    But regardless of how vile or controversial their message is, they must be allowed to speak.
     
  18. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

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    I love how the Belligerent Right Winger comes out swinging against "The Left" when there has literally only been one post since 2005 on the subject here. Speaks volumes about the mental state of folks these days to create "enemies" for themselves to air their grievances towards when you literally are arguing to posts from 2005.

    The truth is the subject is more complicated than a simple yes or no explanation. In this country we have freedom of speech, but we are not free from the consequences of what we say. If I said that I would like to start a coalition to eliminate Irish people, I should anticipate that the Irish would have something to say back to me. We also live in a country that is mostly right to work and your employer almost always has the right to terminate your employment for saying something that the leadership or HR department of your company finds offensive.

    And also... this Belligerent right winger mentioned has no idea what he's talking about in reference to the constitution, and the real threat of the left. Apparently he's never read a history book before. Leftist activism has never led to dictatorship without a dictator in power using the system for tyranny rule like a Stalin. When Antifa actually forms a political party that has a legitimate chance of electing a president of this country, then we can have a serious discussion about whether Antifa or BLM is turning our country into a communist dictatorship. Virtually all Democratic elected officials still heavily rely on and support a Capitalist Democracy. As long as the Democrats still rely on corporations for funding to campaign, Capitalism isn't going anywhere as long as the Corporations still hold power in this country.

    So... long winded way of saying.... The belligerent right wing poster mentioned is an bumbling idiot. White Supremacy groups are 100X more destructive to our society than 'the left" when you have the actual president in power siding with White Supremacy publicly and his political party still giving winks and nods to that side of the country that they don't appreciate the methods, but are okay using their political power & propaganda about "culture" to help win elections.

    The simple answer of "who is more dangerous" in history almost always resides in who actually holds the power of the throne.... and the Nuclear codes.
     
  19. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    Good. Sounds like Boston is going about it the right way. Let's see how it works.
     
  20. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    The purpose of these rallies is not to exercise free speech it's to incite violence.
     

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