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[OFFICIAL] Bernie Sanders for President thread

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Os Trigonum, Feb 19, 2019.

  1. Major

    Major Member

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    25% is insanely off too.

    https://www.healthsystemtracker.org...health-services-spending-by-quarter-2010-2019

    (scroll down to Net cost of health insurance and administration, as a share of total health expenditures, 1970-2018)

    *All* net health care insurance and administration costs rose to a record of under 8% of total health care spending this year - that includes both private sector and all the administrative costs of Medicare/Medicaid/CHIP/etc. If you move 150 million people from private to public health care, those costs will go up. So you're talking about saving 2-4% *maximum* from the elimination of insurance.

    So just to recap, 12 hours ago, you thought eliminating insurance could cut our health care spending by 45%. Now, you know it's more like 2-4%. For perspective, we spent $3.5 trillion on health care in 2017. You thought getting rid of insuranc would save $1.57 trillion per year. Instead, it's more like $100 billion. So you were off by a factor of $1.47 trillion per year - that's nearly 2.5x our entire national defense budget.

    Can you see how batshit crazy everything you thought you knew about the health care system was? And just how ridiculously off that makes all your beliefs about how to solve the problem?
     
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  2. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    It should be noted the source is from as Pete Peterson run organization who is a very ideologically motivated guy. Pete Peterson is the infamous Wall Streeter whose life goal is to eliminate social security and bludgeon nearly all government social spending with an obsession with government deficits.
     
    #1022 glynch, Jan 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  3. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

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  4. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

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    Interesting semi endorsement there from Rogan but keep in mind.... he said “primary”. Keep in mind that the consensus with Right wingers seems to be to vote for Bernie in the primary as a method for weakening Biden or setting up a more favorable opponent for Trump in the general. Hacks like Hugh Hewitt are openly flaunting their primary vote for Bernie as if to tell all Trumpers out there to go do this and screw with the system.

    Now is Rogan a Trumper like Hugh Hewitt??... no. Not even close, but he does have a base of fans that lean HEAVY to Trump. Rogan knows this and that’s why he plays it right on the edge. Wouldn’t shock me the least if Bernie wins the nomination and Rogan all the sudden is both sides-ing all through the general.

    However if he comes out and actually gives him a full throated endorsement upon Bernie winning the nomination, that’s a powerful endorsement that no DC politician can give Bernie.
     
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  5. Haymitch

    Haymitch Custom Title
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    Fwiw, Rogan has said he's never voted right wing his whole life. Here's a clip:



    (Side note: the first time I ever listened to his pod was for his interview with Bernie. I had wanted to hear him talk in "long form" since he seems so bad at debate formats.)
     
  6. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

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    Then he says he voted for Gary Johnson, and other than Tulsi and Bernie all the other Dems can eat sh$t.

    He’s just a representative of this culture of dudes my age and my skin color who want to be viewed as a cool liberal but both sides the left to the detriment of the left. They bring the party down to the level of Trump which works to the favor of the right. They know its not cool to be a Trump fan so they’ll never say it. So they’ll think Tutsi is this safe place where they can have it both ways. I don’t know though if they realize that Bernie is no longer also that safe place because he actually is a liberal and can absolutely beat Trump in Nov.

    I think holding up Rogan as some figure who really speaks his mind with honesty is complete garbage. He’s as full of it as any Democrat he thinks he’s better than. Saying “I’ve never voted Republican” but then trashing Democrats is the oldest trick in the book.

    But if Rogan really does believe in Bernie and truly supports him IF he wins the primary then that’ll be an incredible win for Bernie and the Dem party. Just forgive me for not taking Rogan seriously at this point.
     
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  7. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Contributing Member

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    What is it with your zero-sum MO? Moderates out number the combined hard liners from both sides. Moderates tend to be much more cooperative than the zero-sum mentality of the hardliners. Moderates truly want the best of candidates on the party ticket come general election. They are not going for the ignorant hail mary mentality in hopes their team will win. That stupid mentality is what gave us a Trump/Hillary ticket. Moderate Americans are not happy with this ignorant scorched earth strategy.

    Additionally, we should only be talking about the primaries. Its a bad strategy to intermingle the general election during this discussion. The best candidate should be put forth, not the one that is going to beat the other team. Again, zero-sum mentality. Trump has been defeating any candidate who has been using this strategy.
     
  8. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    I think this has been posted before and it makes sense.

    https://fivethirtyeight-com.cdn.amp...t.com/features/the-moderate-middle-is-a-myth/
     
  9. Haymitch

    Haymitch Custom Title
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    That's cool. I just wanted to provide some context, as I think people too often think of Rogan as a right winger guy. (You did not make that claim in your post, I know.)

    I think it's possible that someone can just be a person talking about things, with no evil ulterior motive. Based off what I've heard, I think Rogan fits that. I've yet to hear any bullshitting.

    ::edit::

    Actually re:bullshitting, he does advertise for CBD a lot which IMO could just be snake oil
     
  10. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

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    Zero-sum MO?.... You don't know me dude. I don't have an MO. I call out both sides whataboutism yes, but you really don't know what you are talking about with your assumption about my "stupidity" and "ignorance". There's a big big difference in Whataboutism that is designed to support right wing policies, but trying to look like a liberal, and true independence... especially independent voters. Stop trying to conflate the two please.

    I actually completely agree that it is a self defeating strategy to elect a general election nominee in the primary just because he or she looks like a better match up in the general. I truly believe the best candidate is the candidate that has a true grassroots movement, and excites not just the base but brings in new voters who aren't usually politically engaged.

    That's how Trump won, and how Obama won two terms. They both turned out non voters that didn't register or align to a party. Nobody would have said that the best person to beat a war hero just years after 9/11 would be a Black recent State Senator from the south side of Chicago whose middle name is Hussein, but the primary process allowed for a grassroots movement to vet out the best candidate to activate a voting coalition that ended up beating John McCain, and Mitt Romney.

    My biggest fear is that the PTSD of Trump in 2016 is stifling more grassroots outsiders like Yang from getting the chance to shine in a way that he might have gotten in the past in a normal primary.
     
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  11. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    Major explained to you how it's more complicated than cutting out the middle man better than I could.

    Key word "If" you don't know if you will be able to keep your doctor or get the care you need in a timley fashion.

    You can't know that for sure and thats why people are wary.

    If you really want to see some alternatives look at the plans by Klobachar, Pete and others.
     
  12. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Contributing Member

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    The article is pretty well written. A problem the article mentions, and I agree with, is trying to label exactly what a moderate or independent really is. Personally I think independent can mean anything.

    That said, I believe we should distinguish strait ticket voters (or as I would suggest ... ill informed voters) from those who actually take the time study all candidates.
     
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  13. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    So refute the numbers with some others.

    Once again you sound like a Trump supporter waving away actual numbers because of who compiled them.

    Show where he is wrong.
     
    #1033 jiggyfly, Jan 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
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  14. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    That article does not refute the what he says.

    The articles whole point is that there is not a single issue that all moderates will unite around I agree but thats not to say there are no moderates.

    It seems that he went out of his way to create questions and categories to back up his argument.
     
  15. Major

    Major Member

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    The source is the Kaiser Family Foundation, which is one of the most highly regarded sources of health care information and analysis in the world.Nothing in their data advocates a viewpoint or suggests one strategy is better than another. But it does provide basic facts and data that are critical to making whatever decisions you make. It's not really surprising you'd be against having that though, given your love of living in a fantasy world where real numbers don't matter.

    It's also really really difficult to hide $1.5 trillion in spending or profits that don't exist in the health care industry, given that it would be about 8% of the entire GDP that you're making magically disappear. Much of this data is publicly available by looking at the revenues and expenses of insurance companies, most of whom are public. But I'll give you a hint: it won't show whatever bizarre fake numbers you're hoping it will.

    https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/kaiser-family-foundation/

    Overall, we rate Kaiser Family Foundation Least Biased based on pro-science reporting and High for factual reporting due to the use of strong credible sourcing.
     
    #1035 Major, Jan 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
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  16. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Contributing Member

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    I think its best to keep numbers relative to the intent of the discussion. While 45% is a non-sequitur, one could easily justify that number.

    That biggest fraud that is perpetuated is that insurance companies and doctors negotiate. They are not negotiating. They are price fixing.

    Imagine a monopoly that is forced to break up into two different companies. Except competing against each other, they share the 'customer'. Regardless of the product (medical procedure/care in this case), the customer is forced to purchase from Company A (the deductible) from $1 to a preset number defined by the subscription plan Company B provides. Company A & Company B can charge whatever price they want because there is no competition.
     
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  17. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    I agree. I wasn't trying to say it refuted anything but that it was applicable and that moderates are such a wide swath of people that it isn't really possible to tailor policy positions to appeal to the 'moderates'.
     
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  18. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    Cool we agree.
     
  19. Major

    Major Member

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    No, you couldn't. It's not even remotely possible.

    Except there is competition here. There are multiple doctors and multiple insurers. Insurers drive down prices they pay to doctors by limiting their networks or threatening to kick them out of network. Insurers have incentive to lower their costs because it increases their customer base by offering cheaper insurance. Doctors have incentive to accept lower rates so they can get into more networks and have a larger stream of patients. Doctors also have incentive to provide better service so that customers want them, which means insurers want them in their networks - that gives Doctors leverage. All around, it's a fairly stupid system, but there is competition built in and there are incentives to drive prices down.

    But regardless, if you want to talk about taking 45% of the money out of the system by eliminating this "price fixing", you're really talking about slashing the amounts doctors make - that's not "get rid of insurance companies and fix the problem". That's "slash doctor's salaries, cut massive amounts of nurses and support personnel, shutter lots of rural hospitals" and on. All these businesses are not pocketing $1.5 trillion - if you want to cut 45% out of the system, it doesn't come from profit margin or administration or things that "don't provide value" as he claimed. It comes from wages and services - you'd be creating a massive economic depression far worse than 2008 if you tried to slash that much money from the health care sector. It would be a GDP cut of 8%. 2008 GDP drop about about 2.5%.

    You can do it over decades by slowing the growth for sure. But that's not what the claim was, and you can do that with a public option as well.
     
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  20. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    Once again Major comes off the top rope and gets the pin.

    Where is this mans belt?
     
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