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Left outraged by engineer's views on diversity

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by durvasa, Aug 6, 2017.

  1. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    Google engineer calls for an honest discussion on gender diversity that recognizes gender differences as a factor in lack of diversity in tech companies, and the Left responds by calling it an "anti-diversity" screed.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-google-diversity-idUSKBN1AM0V3

    I read the actual memo on gizmodo. It was obviously written by someone with some conservative leanings, but the media reaction has been embarrassing and generally has blatantly misprepresemted what he (I assume he) said. It is far more balanced in tone and content than the "rebuttals" I've seen.

    Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
     
    #1 durvasa, Aug 6, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  2. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    He circulated his essay internally? Outside the company he would be able to exercise free speech. Inside the company? I suspect he had been through training... not just on diversity and business ethics, but also on company standards of proper use of company resources. I think he will have a tough time arguing his case.

    I don't discuss politics at all at work (I take out my political frustrations here), and while co-workers know I am active at my church (on occasion I need to take time off for church events) I don't discuss religion at work either (hopefully I am quietly setting an example). I don't think my employer wants me to do either of these at work.

    And while I may be wrong, I have a hunch the author of the essay really wanted to create a fuss.
     
  3. Nook

    Nook Member

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    I agree with his view point in the memo. There are gender based differences. Having said that under the circumstances the engineer is tone deaf to the current issues with Google and allegations. Not surprised though... typical engineer, he should lead the memorandums to lawyers.
     
  4. Major

    Major Member

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    That memo is ... terrible. Not necessarily the content, but the fact that it's just a scattershot of random claims and allegations, none of which is really backed up by anything. It doesn't form any sort of cohesive, logical argument.

    Beyond that, regardless of the merits, I find it amusing that he complains about Google actively trying to counter racism/gender diversity problems, but then complains that Google doesn't actively counter political diversity problems. Pushing diversity that benefits him, conveniently, would be great for Google.
     
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  5. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Contributing Member

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  6. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    Saying that the reason women are not in tech and leadership roles is a result of biological differences may not just violate company policy but federal civil rights laws.

    Companies are not places to express political views. Political views are not free and protected speech in the workplace. A company can fire you for being a liberal. It can fire you for being a conservative. But it can not fire nor discriminate based on age, sex, or race. The writer of this may not realize the laws.

    Your workplace isn't a place to discuss your political views. If you feel your views are not welcomed, you can find another place of work. I have had conservative clients and bosses, and I never pushed my views onto them because it would be inappropriate.

    While much of what he says seems well intentioned, it's not well-informed - for instance IQ differences have been disappearing between the sexes as bias is being removed in our education system and in the recruitment of surveys.

    If I were google, he should be fired. Not because his arguments don't have merit or express sexist views (which would be legit reasons) but because he wasted time writing a 10 page manifesto that disrupted the company instead of just doing his job.
     
    #6 Sweet Lou 4 2, Aug 7, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
  7. wizkid83

    wizkid83 Contributing Member

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    Who's arguing for only male foreign engineers?
     
  8. Shroopy2

    Shroopy2 Contributing Member

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    This guy's had these opinions for LONG time, could tell. When he finally decided to GO for it, he poured in EVERY connected THEORY he could think of lol. Leaves the memo scattered cuz its trying to make too many big statements on different topics, but coulda just stayed focused on gender differences. There's a shakiness to it like he does seem concerned about the Google speech repression. I'm guessing that though he's got strong beliefs, he is NOT the VOCALLY outspoken type either. So it comes out all passive-aggressive groaning in his writing.

    He's at his strongest about biological differences. (I tend to agree with 1/2 of it). But he loses direction with his grumblings about Leftist ideology, Google practices themselves, social discrimination against MALES, Marxism (huh?), and most IMPORTANTLY, his actual SOLUTIONS are kinda suspect.

    He's basically saying REMOVE ALL gender/race assistance programs, because they actually "box in" women and POC's into an inferior standard. Just make women/POC's "work harder" in general admissions so they meet the high standard of everyone else. But create more JOB FIELDS to get into that cater toward women's unique abilities.

    But it still comes across like "You Damn Google Lefty Twits Just DONT GET IT". I dont think he should get fired for the content. But he straight dissed Google about their misguided ways, and probably went against company policy anyway so he'll probably get dealt some kind of reprimand.
     
    #8 Shroopy2, Aug 7, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
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  9. Buck Turgidson

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    He is a silly person, best not to engage.
     
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  10. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    Yeah, I found it amusing that he wants to tear down programs that attempt to address the poor diversity rates among gender and non-white or Asian groups but gives no solutions to increase diversity rates other than his crackerjack premises that bear no weight in reality or academia. The core logic of his claims is mostly through his own confirmation biases (As a male, I don't have to be a social guy as society...no, genetics... dictates it as so!)

    @durvasa, the premise in the OP is wrong because it seems he's more frustrated at Google's solutions without addressing the endemic problems of the current status quo. It's not merely "just a matter" of debate but rather the cultures and norms seen in geek and tech society is a de facto "natural" equilibrium that's fitting for the essay writer to defend.

    As someone who has almost a decade in IT in different locations, working with co-workers of different creeds and getting paid to filter out who sucks and who doesn't, I know the claims and opinions that guy has aren't true. I suspect it's more of a defensive measure by him against people he can't socially connect to without a big degree of awkwardness.

    I'm also familiar with Google's working culture which is more traditional engineering and data centric even when the pace and risk tolerances of software engineering isn't a matter of life and death like it is with bridges or spaceships. While Google scale is a different frame of mind not found in 90% of other software companies, it's not a matter of physiological gender differences that is the root cause for the low rates of women and historically discriminated minorities in the workforce.

    They don't practice extreme programming or other collaborative techniques that would onramp a new engineer, and there's still a preferential bias over candidates with a Stanford equivalent pedigree or a mastery of endless lists of algorithms over real world experience. Code reviews, documentation and unit tests are more of a hierarchical, solo matter which is still common in most IT shops.

    Google's track record speaks for itself, but those qualities mentioned reinforces a monolithic culture that's facing scrutiny in public opinion and clashing against changing workforce demographics. I guess if this leak provides debate on whether software IT is officially mainstream, that's great I guess, but I like to think there are more compelling opinions and grounded facts for people like him to carry as a banner.
     
    Major likes this.
  11. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    The criticism against this memo has largely overstated what it said. He didn't call for the programs to be torn down. He obviously disagrees with them, which is right, and he's raising his concerns about it. It was a call to reexamine the issue and think about other options to address the diversity challenge (which he acknowledges as something to seriously contend with). The rush to demonize his position and chastise him for daring to even voice a dissenting perspective is a reflection of the very point he was making.
     
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  12. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    He said biological differences "may" explain some of the gender inequalities in that field. Is that really a controversial statement?

    This has been twisted by headline after headline I've read as: "Google engineer claims women suck at tech because of their biology".

    He even said there is overlap in skills between men and women and was meanly talking about differences in distributions and averages. Look, maybe the facts don't support his position there, but it seems plausible enough to me and therefore his point that it "may" explain some of the inequalities in outcomes is valid.

    Regarding expressing political views, I'll push back there as well. His problem is that the company itself has politicized the work environment through their diversity training programs which espouse a left-leaning position. It's not like he's just bringing up some hare-brained political ideas out of the blue.
     
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  13. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    Is this a back handed way of saying ....

    The Right embraces misogyny, wherever it can find it.
     
  14. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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  15. Amiga

    Amiga I get vaunted sacred revelations from social media
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    Everyone has the right to be stupid.
     
  16. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    The company "politicized" through diversity training? First, a lot of diversity training content is required by and dictated by employment (EEOC) laws. Second, it is a company... one of many. If he doesn't like the way the company does things, if he doesn't like it's "left-leaning-ness", there is the same door he entered the company in. If the company I worked for favored political positions I didn't agree with and it bothered me to want to write a political essay... I'd have found a new job with a different company. And again... he shouldn't be writing and distributing political essays in the company.
     
  17. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    The left is "outraged"? Did you steal that title from some ultra-conservative blog?
     
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  18. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    I don't think you understand what it is to be a minority or a woman in a work place. Even as a senior executive in a company it isn't easy. Bias is pervasive and as a minority you are very hesitant to address as it just makes you look weak - but it is definitely there. What he is saying is to deny racial and gender bias which has been proven by numerous studies to exist. The use of the word "may" is doesn't make what he says any less controversial.

    The idea that having these programs is a "liberal" bias is ridiculous. There are many minority conservatives who back diversity programs. The very idea of calling racial bias a liberal thing demonstrates this is not about politics but rather about race.

    Is part of the reason get paid less due to the fact they don't negotiate for higher incomes? Sure - that's definitely part of it. Does that mean they are biologically inferior and that should be something that should be addressed? NO! That's not something that a workplace should be addressing. That's for the scientific community to research and thus far studies don't show a difference in IQ. Even if they did it's not appropriate for a work place which is suppose to be a team oriented and blind to individual difference.

    He acts like diversity programs give women and minorities an unfair advantage when they are there to give minorities the support they need to excel in a white male dominated world.
     
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  19. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    Google has a VP of diversity. LMAO what a world.
     
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  20. watashi315

    watashi315 Member

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    I haven't read the memo yet but being a minority I think about this issue a lot. A lot of gender/racial discrimination at work and society come from the fact that companies and society force the notion of "egalitarianism" upon us...that all beings are equals. We're not going to get into the philosophical debate on whether egalitarianism is right or just but assuming that not everyone buy into this, then ultimately what we have is a deep division in fundamental thought. Most countries in the world (including western ones) do not have "diversity" programs or "EEOC", for a lot of them they just use the notion that men/women are different and that's the end of that. Let's not waste time to think about it too much.

    But when you force people to accept certain concepts, it's becomes a hard pill to swallow. And that's where all these fundamental right people began to voice they frustration and anger. In fact, that's the story on the rise of Trumpism in this country. A lot of frustrated people are just sick and tired of being told what to do and how to think.
     
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