Is it safe to say Jose Altuve will be the greatest Astro 2nd baseman of all time?

Go ahead and lock up this thread. As I said in this thread, Altuve was already well past Biggio in my mind as Biggio was a playoff choker and during his 20 year career never learned how to lay off a down and away slider outside of the zone - and I'm not talking about just a few elite pitchers who did this to him...anyone with a good slider could do it.

That being said, after tonight and these playoffs so far overall, anyone who continues to argue Biggio over Altuve needs a reality check. The ONLY argument you can make is the longevity aspect which got him the 3000 hits milestone, which he only accomplished because he continued playing WAY PAST his prime which only hurt the team.

Edit: Just for fun here's a comparison of their career playoff stats (and let's be real playing in the CS and WS is even more pressure than the DS and the teams are generally harder...and while we always played ATL those teams didn't exactly hang a ton of WS flags).

Biggio: .234/.295/.328/.618 with 2 HR, 2 SB and a 13/30 BB to K - that was over 40 games and 185 PA/167 AB

Altuve: .287/.354/.552/.906 with THIRTEEN HR, 4 SB and a 18/27 BB to K - 43 games with 174 AB

So they have now played in roughly the same playoff games and it's not as if Altuve has just been playing weak playoff teams...they've gone through two great NYY teams, a very good CLE team with several elite SPs, a TB team who had the lowest ERA in the AL, and a stacked LAD team with one of the best pitchers of our generation and a $300M payroll or whatever it was. So don't give me the BS excuse that it was just because Biggio faced HOF starters.

 

That WS MVP may be coming earlier than even you probably expected...

 

Altuve has passed Biggio, yes.

But this Biggio hate is completely ignorant. Just stupid. The list of Hall of Famers who struggled in the post season, over their entire careers, is quite long. News Flash: it's hard to hit in the post season. (go ahead and check the Astros' OPS for this year, for reference)

Knocking someone who gets 3000 hits because they played past their prime is just ignorant. You'd have to play that card against nearly everyone who's accumulated big numbers. How does Pujols look this year?

Can't we celebrate the two greatest 2B in Astros' history without trashing one of them?

Just stupid.

 

Great NYY teams with bad rotations, FWIW, though great bullpens. He has feasted on them. He struggled terribly against the Royals, and he mostly struggled against the Dodgers.

I'm not going to complain about Biggio's lack of postseason success or Bagwell's. It is almost always unfair to do so given the relatively small sample sizes and timing has a lot to do with it. It probably doesn't help that he didn't play in the postseason until he was already 31. Moises Alou starred in a WS, but didn't hit for us in the postseason either. Alex Bregman is slugging .211 over 77 PAs in his ALCS career, but I don't think we doubt him (basically getting the Bagwell treatment of being walked, but this team actually makes teams pay for that).

 

I think we should remove the word "Astro" from the original question. Then, we'll really get into stat nerdery.

I mean, who else is out there? Hornsby? Lajoie? In the modern era, you can make a credible argument that Altuve is better than Morgan, better than Carew, better than Jackie and Biggio and Kent and and Alomar and Utley and Sandberg. Jose leads all those guys in at least one major stat category.

Ah hell, we should just enjoy watching one of the best ballplayers in this generation play ball for the Houston Astros.

 

Yes...Biggio sucked in the postseason, but most every year, Biggio was going through Smoltz, Maddux and Glavine (3 hall of farmers) and when that wasn’t happening, he was stuck with Kevin Brown.

 

Maybe not better than Joe Morgan yet. Eddie Collins and Rogers Hornsby are up there. And, despite the over-played, oft-whined about post season struggles, Craig Biggio is up there just behind that tier.

 

Loved em both, loved Billy Doran too - think Altuve is possibly the greatest Astro ever.

Enjoy the ride.

DD

 

2nd greatest Houston athlete of all time.

 

I think altuve is the best Astro of all-time

1160 hits in a 5 yr span 4 years in a row getting over 200 hits was the batting leader 3 years.

Won and MVP and now has a ALCS mvp

Dude is rock solid.

He’s 29 and has over 1500 hits in 9 years. He’s well on his way to 3000 hits himself.

Little guy is a monster and he has some power now also.

He very well could end up with 3000 hits and 250 HRs with all the other stuff I named plus a World Series ring and counting.

To me if he retired today I would still argue he’s the best Astro off alltime but it’s debatable but if he stays with us and gets to we’re his career numbers are trending.... it’s a no brainer.

Doesn’t hurt he’s a post season stud either.

And I’m not knocking biggio or bagwell those guys are legends and HOF guys and a lot of studs struggled in the post season.

Alex Rodriguez is prob the most talented player of the last 50 years (steroids aside) and he was notorious for struggling in the playoffs.

Happens to a lot of the greats.

Postseason baseball is hard and it’s what makes it so exhilarating compared to other sports especially once you get to the ALCS/NLCS and the World Series every pitch and at bat means o much compared to other sports.

Only thing close imo is when u get two great champion boxers fighting and it’s literally back and forth it’s the only thing that rivals the excitement of every second of a postseason baseball game.

 

Altuve is the leader of the greatest Astros team(s) every assembled.

It's a team that has gone to the playoffs in 4 of the past 5 seasons, won 100+ games in the past 3 years, has made it to the WS in 2 of the past 3 years and the ALCS in the past 3.

It's a team that has Verlander, Cole, Greinke, Correa, Brantley, Bregman, Springer, Alvarez and more. It's a team with the highest WRC+ since the '27 Yankees.

It's a team that has knocked a VERY decent Yankees team out of the playoffs in 3 of the past 4 years.

Once again, Altuve is the leader of this team.

So, yes, Altuve is a lock for greatest 2B in Astros history.

 

Loved.........absolutely loved Biggio........Altuvecis the greatest Astros second baseman of all time

 

(cough)... where do Sterling Hitchcock, Andy Ashby, Kevin Millwood, and all those mediocre bullpen pitchers those teams had figure in?

 

Yes cuz he is getting it done on the big stage against big time (big market big history) teams, they didn't just make it to the WS, or got swept in the WS, they won it.

I just remember being disappointed by Biggio and Bagwell come Postseason.

 

How many rings did that trio win? Everyone faces good pitchers in the playoffs...and the relievers these days throw harder and have better stuff than ever before. Plus, it’s not as if we have been beating crappy starting pitching staffs (this Yankees one is the only one I’d say is bad) either.

We have faced Sale, Kershaw, Kluber, Snell, Morton, etc. and he’s been able to hit them all. So while I understand the Braves had great pitching, it doesn’t excuse Biggio’s performance (if anything the fact he faced them that many times and couldn’t just guess/get lucky more than twice makes it even worse) and Altuve has faced many future HOF pitchers himself.

 

Hitchcock >>>>> Chapman

 

How much more of a sample size do you need to judge playoff performance? I feel like 40+ games is a pretty decent sample size...speaking of I find it ironic you’ve expressed that isn’t enough of a sample and then manage to highlight a sample OF A sample for Bregman in the same post.

That being said, are you arguing that no one should consider playoff performances when evaluating a career because the sample size is too small? Does that go for basketball and football too?

Edit: I bet if you asked Biggio and Bagwell their thoughts on their career playoff performance they both would tell you point blank they didn’t produce as they needed to do.

 

One larger than the vast majority of players get. 400PAs would be a quality sample size.
I pointed out Bregman because it shows you what can be true in a relatively small sample size.
You can't compare other sports, especially basketball. In baseball I'll give bonus points, but not going to take anything away.
Of course they would because they didn't, but there is a lot of luck in baseball.

 

Kevin Millwood led the league in hits per 9 the year he 1 hit us in the playoffs.

Hitchcock won NLCS MVP and ended up with a 1.76 career postseason ERA striking out 41 in 30.2 IP. Crazy right? Biggio was 1-2 with a double and HBP.

Biggio was 1-2 with a BB against Ashby (who was an AS that year).

 

I feel like al the people arguing Altus is already the greatest just didn’t watch much of Biggio or Bagwell or understand how great their careers were.
But, as just one measure of proof that this is absurd, right now, Biggio and Bagwell are HOFers (deservedly so- nobody would argue they deserve it other than maybe PED clouds) while if Altuve retired today he wouldn’t sniff it.
Best in playoffs? Hands down Altuve. And he’s had enough of a ample size to compare to each of them.
Greatest peak? Probably still Bagwell, but Altuve could surpass him with another great year or two.
Greatest longevity/compiler? Biggio right now. The man did it at an average/above average/excellent level for 16 or so years, played 20, and was never truly embarrassing even at the end.
Now, I’d bet on Altuve easily surpassing Biggio’s accomplishments when it’s all said and done (absent injury), and his peak is already higher (but bidge was so ****ing from 1995-1999) than Craig’s ever was, but he hasn’t done it yet.