Is it safe to say Jose Altuve will be the greatest Astro 2nd baseman of all time?

There were a few on this board wanting Kemp over Altuve a number of years ago

 

*raises hand* I believe it was after 2013, the year before he exploded, that I said they should maybe trade him. I did not see his massive improvement coming.

 

The revisionist history regarding Biggio is astounding. Folks truly are judging one of the greatest 2B of all time--MLB, not just HOU--by the last three or four seasons.

If you have a beef with that statement, I would encourage you to study Biggio's numbers against all the HoF 2B before throwing shade.

 

It's absurd really.

During his prime from 93-01 he was a spectacular player. He averaged 111 runs over that stretch, even with the strike stealing some time. Altuve has only scored 110 runs once and Biggio averaged it for a decade. That's not a criticism of Altuve, that's shows just what a run scoring monster Biggio was.

During his actual best years he was an MVP level player. Yet people are whining about the stuff at the end as if playing for a long time is all he did. I'm just gonna put these stupid f**ks on ignore.

 

I mean seriously, our farm was an absolute catastrophe during his twilight. Him and Lance f**king Berkmen were our centerfielders for 2 years. As if ownerships incompetence was somehow his fault.

He even moved to allow the team to sign Kent and Burke got plenty of PA.

 

Kind of a Bill James approach to comparing to players:

Their best years:
1997 Biggio - 31yo, .309 / .415 / .501 / .916 OPS, 191H, 84BB, 22HR 81RBI 146R, 47SB, 34HBP(!), 0 GIDP (!!), 9.4 WAR, 4th place MVP voting
2017 Altuve - 27yo, .346 / .410 / .547 / .957 OPS, 204H, 58BB, 24HR, 81RBI, 112R, 32SB, 8.1 WAR, **1st place MVP and World Series champion

Best 5 year stretch:
1995-1999 Biggio, ages 29-33, WAR's 6.3 / 5.5 / 9.4 / 6.5 / 5.1 - 32.8 total
2014-2018 Altuve, ages 24-28, WAR's 6.1 / 4.8 / 7.7 / 8.1 / 5.2 - 31.9 total

Longevity:
Biggio 65.5 WAR with career .281 / .363 / .433 / .796 splits
Altuve 37.9 WAR with career .315 / .365 / .461 / .825 splits (still just age 29)

Hall of Fame-type records:
Biggio: 3060 hits (#25 all time), 668 doubles (#5 all time), 285 HBP (#1 all time, lol)
Altuve: 1545 hits at age 29

When it comes time to discuss the intangibles, you can note that through his prime Biggio was probably the better defender between the two and consistently demonstrated superior "hustle" type stats, i.e. fewer GIDP's and more "crafty vet" HBP's. I was in my teens during Biggio's prime so I'll always have that era viewed with rose-colored glasses. If you want to look at the things that favor Altuve, the answers are also easy: better splits across the board, with power of late coming on, and it looks like he's going to get plate discipline later in his career that continues to allow him to keep his OBP higher too. Finally, and most importantly, we have to consider postseason performance. Altuve has had a few bad series here and there, and he may have been injured last year, but the 2017 ALDS and ALCS were undeniable. We don't win it all in 2017 without him. That World Series championship, when it's all said and done, might be the cherry that puts Altuve over top. This assumes, however, that Altuve's knee doesn't go degenerative on him in the next decade, and he can have a similar longevity career like Biggio and at least contribute positively into his mid-30's. We'll see.

 

If Altuve gracefully declines from this point on till the end of his contract, then probably yes due to postseason discrepancies. Especially if the Astros reach another World Series or do more.

Not Biggio's fault he couldn't play in one of the most stacked rosters but it is what it is.

 

Agreed.

Excellent point! But 98 was an outlier for him in that it was pretty stacked.

 

Love your approach to comparison, but I completely disagree with the extra weight you put on postseason performance. I realize plenty of folks see it the way you do, but you don't make the postseason without being superior in the regular season. This ain't the NBA; the season actually matters.

 

Me, too - though I think we both were skeptical into (and maybe beyond) the '15 season. I never thought what he doing was sustainable - high average with no plate discipline. But I've decided to forever stop doubting him. He makes absolutely no sense - but he's great and we're all lucky I'm not a GM.

 

We’re all lucky none of us are GMs or managers.

 

Much like the Spanish Inquisition, nobody expected this from him.

 

The run discrepancy is weird... Altuve gets on base *a lot* and has always had big bats behind him. That has to be line-up thing? Biggio led off, Altuve has often hit 3rd? I don't know... weird.

I've always been fascinated by the idea that Biggio was actually a better HoF candidate had his knee injury ended his career in 2000 - yet, he *never* would've gotten in had he not limped to to 3,000 hits.

He was very bad his final six years; it cost him 10 points on his batting average; 18 points on his on-base percentage; his OPS dropped 21 points and his OPS+ nine. After *averaging* 4.7 bWAR his first 13 full seasons, he *totaled* 4.6 bWAR his final six seasons.

Honestly? I didn't really care that he reached 3,000 hits; I disliked it, actually - thought it was rather pathetic. And, yes - it is not rational but I will forever hold it against him that he went into the Hall of Fame much quicker than Bagwell, who was a vastly superior player. THAT IS NOT RATIONAL! I KNOW!

 

It's crazy. Now, I will say - his plate discipline has gotten so much better. But who would've thought *that* guy was going to develop 20+ HR power? He's crazy.

 

Biggio is arguably the 2nd best position of the 90s without links to steroids... only Griffey was clearly better.

 

Why is runs scored a good metric to judge a player?

it's about 70% dependent on a teammate if not more.

It's more of a team stay than a urging else IMO.

 

We have a strong legacy of 2Bers... Morgan, Doran, Biggio, Kent, Altuve... and Matsui

 

Biggie had some pretty stacked rosters well.

The Killer B's were no joke.

 

Pitchers have gotten a lot better (K% is much higher now) making it harder to get knocked in outside homers, and teams are more interested in scoring a lot of runs than increasing odds of scoring one run. More sacrifice hits, more errors, more bunts are going to favor run scoring for guys that aren't big boppers. Lineup also is a big factor, as you suggest.

 

All of this. Biggio was great. His greatness should never be in question and I feel like those who do weren't around to see just how amazing he was in the 1990's before the knee injury and age worked on his skills and value.
The nonsense that he blocked anyone or that there were guys that should have played over him is just that, total and abject horseshit that didn't make sense at the time and doesn't in retrospect.

Could you say that his last two years were such that he didn't deserve a roster spot? Sure, but we were going nowhere and had nobody any better than him, and it was worth it to give a 20 year legend a send off on more or less his own terms, with the stakes being so low for the team that was out of contention and didn't have better anyway.

Bill James loves Craig Biggio. Has him as one of the most underrated players of all times due to things that most people don't notice or look at (at least through the 90's).

All that said, to whoever said that he was definitely clean I'd say, "ehhh, not so sure".