I'm going to need the full story here

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by wizkid83, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    Would have to see much more of the incident but from the video posted it does appear that the person holding the flag pole is attempting to spear Harris' companion with it. Harris' companion's hand is on the flag. It's hard to tell if that is because he is trying to take it or acting defensively.

    Anyway as noted VA law allows for third party self-defense and with stand your ground Harris has no obligation to retreat from the threat. For me it seems like a pretty solid argument for Harris to say he swung the flashlight to defend his friend who he perceived as being under attack.
     
    #21 rocketsjudoka, Oct 12, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  2. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    . It's speculative to say that one party showed up to assault the other without more evidence. Both have the right to be there and under stand your ground neither party has the obligation to retreat if they consider the other a threat. From the video it isn't clear whether the person holding the flag pole or Harris' companion initiated the incident. From the video though Harris clearly didn't as he is standing behind his companion. From his vantange point he is seeing his friend being speared by an assailant and responds with force to protect his friend. VA law allows for third party self-defense.
     
  3. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    Is this a good place for me to say, again, that Stand Your Ground is a completely moronic law? When protesters and counter-protesters get into a street fight, the whole lot of them should be jailed. But under Stand Your Ground, you can't convict any of them. (Unless one of them is black, of course.)
     
  4. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member

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    I mean I guess that's one way to see it, but another (more likely IMO) scenario is that Harris and his group were trying to take the flag from the guy holding on to the other end, when the guy didn't let go, Harris bashed him over the head with a flashlight.....and then a larger group came and assaulted Harris' group.

    Personally I think you give Harris 6 years for his assault, and you give those who beat him at least that long if you can determine who they are. That would be justice in this situation. When you show up to a demonstration like that with something that can be used as a club, and you use it as a club, I don't think it is speculative to suggest that they showed up looking to do exactly what they did and the "stand your ground" law doesn't apply when you initiate the violence. Assisting someone who is trying to steal the property of another doesn't qualify.
     
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  5. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member

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    Not true, the stand your ground law wouldn't be a defense to those who are deemed the aggressor, so in any situation it would only help one party....or none. In a situation where 2 groups show up to an event armed and acting aggressive towards each other, it wouldn't help either party.
     
  6. Granville

    Granville Contributing Member

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    It's clear that the companion of Harris has his hands on someone else's property and is pulling it from him. Then Harris stupidly decides to assault the man.
     
  7. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member

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    That isn't clear at all. We don't see the beginning of the encounter. If Harris' companion was attacked and was pulling the weapon from the white guy's hand in self-defense, and Harris aids his companion to defend himself then there is no way Harris is guilty of anything at all.

    We don't know. It looks clearly like Harris is defending his companion to me.
     
  8. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    The influenza kid obviously had a future and proved it. This black guy does not and proves it by breaking the law and bring a thug :rolleyes:
     
  9. Granville

    Granville Contributing Member

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    That’s a stupid stretch of imagination.

    Everyone in that video and at that event on one side of the is a misguided idiot .
     
  10. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member

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    That's kind of the point. You made up an imagined scenario in your mind. I simply made up an imagined scenario that is also possible just like the one that you presented as actual fact.

    In the video, I see one Nazi with a weapon and a person pulling on that weapon. The Nazi gets struck by another guy. That part is not imagined or made up. That's all we know from the video.
     
  11. Granville

    Granville Contributing Member

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    Unfortunately for you, your view is devoid of logic. The man with the flag made no attempt to lunge at anyone with the flag pole. You wouldn't pull the flag toward you if someone was trying to jab the pole in you or hit you with it. You would push it downward or to the side. He was clearly trying to take the flag most likely to burn it in the street as was already going on.

    None of that justifies the beatdown of Harris though. They should have held him until police arrived. They didn't because they were violent assholes like Harris.
     
  12. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member

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    I agree the beat down of Harris was unjustified no matter what.

    But I think your logic is lacking.
    1. We don't know when the incident started. Attacking with the pole in a second prior to filming might result in the actions you mentioned. If the guy was jabbing with the pole repeatedly or for quite a while things might be different. If the recipient caught the pole in his hands after a weak attack and was trying to disarm the person by pulling it away from him that would also make sense for him to be pulling.

    There is just too much unknown about what happened prior to the stat of the video. The video isn't clear evidence of Harris assaulting anyone and isn't proof beyond a reasonable doubt of anything.
     
  13. Granville

    Granville Contributing Member

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    He wasn’t jabbing at the guy when Harris hit him. Harris had no reason to respond the way he did when he did. Stop trying to justify criminal actions
     
  14. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member

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    Correct but that doesn't rule out self defense.
     
  15. Granville

    Granville Contributing Member

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    In this ridiculous scenario of yours, does the Nazi at least say "hold my beer" before he tries to pedestrian joust with a lance that has a long piece of cloth on the tip of it against a mob that outnumbers him 10-1.
     
  16. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member

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    You have made a lot of assumptions. You assume that Harris' mates were there when it began. For all we know, the Nazi attacked a guy with his weapon, and Harris and the others came upon the situation.

    It also makes no sense that you are acting like the giant wooden dowel couldn't be a weapon. It's actually a better weapon than the flashlight Harris used.

    Anything you say happened before the recording is something you are making up and assuming. Neither you nor I know what happened before the taping. I do know that what is on the tape isn't enough evidence to book Harris.
     
  17. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    Possible but we don't see the beginning of the incident to to know what initiated it. In the video Harris companion is grabbing the flag but the person holding the pole is advancing on him too.
    Except that is presuming that Harris' friend is stealing the flag and also presuming that Harris knows that his friend is stealing the flag. If Harris sees his friend appearing to be attacked under VA law then he does have the right to defend his friend.

    As far as showing up to a demonstration with something like a club there is nothing in VA law that would prohibit that and that alone wouldn't apply to the presumption of violence. If we follow the example of the Zimmerman case many who argued in defense of Zimmerman pointed out him being armed doesn't necessarily mean that he the presumption of violence.
     
    #37 rocketsjudoka, Oct 12, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  18. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    In the video there clearly appears to be many others who are with the man with the flag. Also given the fact that Harris was beaten by a large group of people shortly afer who I think we can agree were sympathetic to the man with the flag it doesn't appear he is without allies.
     
  19. Granville

    Granville Contributing Member

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    If you would watch the video with an open mind you wold see that several of those "mates" had weapons in their hands. The guy with the pink shirt raised that stick and was about to club the Nazi with it. No the dowel is not a better weapon it's to awkward to use because of it's length.
     
  20. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member

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    It's silly that we are arguing about which stupid weapon is better. But having length and reach with a weapon doesn't make it a worse weapon it makes it a better weapon.
     
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