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[FEDERALIST] If We’re Going To Have A Racial Double Standard It Should Be About Black Americans Only

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Os Trigonum, Aug 11, 2018.

  1. SF3isBack!!

    SF3isBack!! Member

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    Other than making it harder for them as they have been for decades. You guys live with privilege covered shades on.
     
  2. Senator

    Senator Member

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    Diversity in line with the population, I believe all Asians make up 5% of the US population but have a 4-5x representation rate in elite colleges. Blacks make up 13%, and have a representation on par at elite colleges. It's not racism, it's representation.
     
  3. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    Its not racism. Unfortunately arguing with educated blacks on these topics, they tend to think of themselves

    There is still a real education problem in poor black communities that has to be addressed from inward
     
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  4. Senator

    Senator Member

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    Spot on. I mentioned it earlier but could see the clear pattern of denial from those who didn't want to look in the mirror and speak up in their community about it.
     
  5. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    AA absolutely does not work for "all races", and I'm sure you know better than to say that.

    As to who is being racially discriminated against, it's the Asians who are passed over to admit less deserving white, Hispanic, and black students. That's what happens when you put a quota on a race of people, it was the same back when Harvard was doing that to Jews....only the quota for Jews was considerably less than the cap they've put on Asians. As a group, Asians have the highest average IQ, they get the best test scores, they have the highest GPA's.....in short, they are the best students. When the college aged population of that group doubles, and certain top schools with a history of racial or ethnic quotas manage to keep the number of Asians they admit the same while the number of applicants drastically rises.....I mean if you cared about anything more than the best interest of certain "tribes", you'd have a problem with it. Other schools that don't discriminate based on race or ethnicity have shown the increase in college aged Asians with an increase in the numbers of Asians admitted....

    Again, this is just you burying your head in the sand because without racial discrimination being a factor, it would slightly decrease the number of black students admitted to schools like Harvard and that's what is important to you. Equality isn't worth that potential outcome in your mind, so you support racial and ethnic discrimination. Anyway, I'm not going to tell you what you should support and what you shouldn't, but we're not going to see eye to eye when you are supporting racial and ethnic discrimination.
     
  6. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    Over-representation isn't necessarily a bad thing when it is earned. Asians are on average superior students to other groups, thus they SHOULD be over-represented if things are equal. Artificially holding them back in order to get equality of outcome is racism and is fundamentally wrong.
     
  7. amaru

    amaru Member

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    The article lost me when the author said the conversation should shift from white privilege to simply being about black suffering.

    So basically, let me hear about your suffering but don’t you dare tell me how your community ended up in that state.
     
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  8. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    I'll explain later...

    I do, but again, you seem to argue that the black kids going in are being graded based on an average, it's not likely that is happening. It's more likely that Harvard has a minimum passing that students must pass. Again, look at what the professor from Harvard said on this very issue, I will not allow that to be ignored. She said that admissions is art more than science and explained how it works in brief at elite schools. It doesn't work out the way you think it works out and she admits it's not on merit.

    Her stat that Harvard takes 1 of 4 students with PERFECT scores should tell you that Harvard is not weighing test scores the way you think they should.

    Again, I think you are missing the point that Harvard is not determining merit the way YOU are determining it.

    But see, that's where the 190 argument comes in. You said that the gap didn't matter, that if it was 50, 190, 450, it didn't matter. I said that it did because yes, if Lebron was averaging 10/2/1 people would drop the best player label for him...but look at this stats of last year, people still said it despite him having inferior stats to numerous players.

    This means people are looking at things that stats don't track, leadership, clutch moments, etc. This is basically how these admissions work.

    You provided evidence that black students are not getting in based on other factors? I missed that, if you have the evidence for that a Mr.Blum would certainly love to see it in his X case against Harvard.

    Yeah, they are not comparing them though? The professor said that sometimes, the Harvard band may seek out a violinist and that would put hat student higher on the list. This means for a student like that, this student may not be graded strongly on their test scores at all, yet they got in because of their talent, not because of their race. That's what put them in the school, along with likely having really good grades, which nearly every Harvard student does.

    That's not what I said...I said they consider the race of all students, AA protects ALL races. If Harvard gave racial preference to black applicants, why have 14% ? Every other Ivy league school has about 5-8% and no one complains. If they were meeting a quota, why 14%

    Why 22% Asian? Other schools have more, other schools have less, why that number?

    All AA does is make sure that they have black kids on campus, it turns out, that the admissions are just merely accepting more black kids than other Ivy's but you have yet to prove that they are doing it in a discriminatory nature, especially since so many of these kids graduate.

    And you know, if Harvard got rid of AA and it went down to 2% you KNOW what would happen? Civil rights group would then sue Harvard for discriminating against blacks, and they'd be making the same case of "It was once 14 and now it is 2, explain."

    Again, this isn't proof either way that people are getting in BECAUSE of their race. Because admissions consider race does not mean that they are putting people in because of race. It means that they are trying to have a diverse campus.

    You actually can't prove that. Again, Harvard rejects 3 out of 4 students with perfect grades, this should tell you that their admissions process is based on opinion more than any set of numbers.

    They are trying to build a diverse class, not only through demographics, but through talent as well. College is not all about dominating tests in the first place, it's about building skills and connections.

    It is also not racism. Racism is based on one race being considered superior over another. Is your argument that Harvard considers Asians inferior? That they deny Asians out of some kind of racial malice?
     
  9. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    I guess white women are no longer white. News to me.


    Do you understand that college isn't all about a test? Not everyone goes to college to be an engineer. People go to college to be lawyers, musicians, writers, historians, cameramen, directors, whatever. Going on about how Asians have the highest IQ is irrelevant to the discussion, (never mind that IQ is not Harvard isn't looking just for High IQ students, they are looking for exemplary students. In fact, this is something they've stressed since the 1930s, that they would move away from pure 'merit' as they want students from all backgrounds and all talents.

    I'm glad you brought up the Jewish case, because it defeats your argument. I was hoping Stupidmoniker would but I suppose he knew better and that it wouldn't help his case...

    Harvard lost that case because it was proven that Harvard had wanted to put a cap on Jewish students. They have not done that to Asian students, that hasn't been proven and they even found the motivation for it. If you can find an admissions officer saying that they want fewer Asians, sure, go for it. It will be racism but just because one school in California has a 40% Asian demographic doesn't mean every school in the nation needs to have one, that is silly. Especially as Harvard's asian population rises, it is now the highest it's ever been I believe. So where is the cap?

    You can also say that because Harvard has 14% black demographic that Yale needs to as well, that Yale has put a quota on its black students, why not?

    Again, if your argument is that Harvard has a cap on Asian students, then you need to prove that.
    If your argument is that it is easier to get into Harvard if you are black, that too needs to be proven. That's going to be really hard to prove, because who determines difficulty? Harvard denies students with perfect SAT scores, so you have to admit that they are not judging students only by these.

    Harvard is not playing by your rules, they have their own metric and their own expectations of their students.

    The rest of your post is a complete strawman, so have fun smacking that around.
     
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  10. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    LOL, this is just more of you burying your head in the sand to avoid the obvious truth. It's okay man, I know where you stand and why you stand there, you've made it abundantly clear that you support racial discrimination if it benefits certain groups and that's fine I suppose. Funny enough though, the biggest beneficiary of the racist policies against Asians is white people....so really you are sticking up for "white privilege" because in this instance a side effect is slightly higher admittance of black students. It's funny how things play out when people support or oppose things based on tribalism.
     
  11. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    This is the failure in your argument.

    You think scoring high on tests makes you a superior student. Harvard and other Ivy league schools do not.

    People are not numbers, they are not their averages, start judging people by their individual talents.

    If you're going to say a kid shouldn't go to Harvard you need a better reason than "Because an Asian kid somewhere did better on a test." If you can't see how that is dangerously close to racist than I don't know what else is.

    You are basically saying that you don't know the black kids that were let in, you don't know the Asian kids that were let in, but you are assuming that the Asian kids did more to get into Harvard and deserve to be there, the black kids...ehhh, not so much.

    Before you flip it around on me, I'm not saying that, I'm saying how Harvard does their admissions is fine. It's irrelevant to me that a school in California has more Asian kids than Harvard...as it should be irrelevant to you that Harvard has more black students than Yale.
     
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  12. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    LOL, None of this counters anything I've actually said and you continue arguing with yourself about something I've never said.

    You have fun with that strawman, go easy on it.
     
  13. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    Would you be making this argument if black students had the highest test scores and GPA's and they were being passed up for white students with lower test scores and GPA's? There's no chance you would, you'd claim it was evidence of racism.

    Again though, you are defending this racist policy despite the fact that white students are BY FAR the biggest beneficiaries of it.....but all you care about is the fact that some black students benefit from it too.

    Also, it's funny that the same kind of people who will claim against all logic that a disproportionately high number of black people being shot by police is evidence of racism....despite the fact that black people also disproportionately murder cops....and people in general, are the same types of people who will dismiss the fact that despite the fact that Asians have the highest test scores, best GPA's, and on average highest IQ's, there seems to be a cap on how many are admitted to certain schools and that cap has remained in place despite the population of college aged Asians literally doubling.

    Essentially you guys will invent racism where it isn't if it pushes a certain narrative, while ignoring legitimate racism if they think certain people might benefit from it. Honestly that's disgusting IMO.
     
  14. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    This actually happens. A black student with higher test scores gets passed over by someone with lower test scores actually does happen. So yes, I'm still making that argument.

    I've been saying all along that white people benefit from it the most, through legacies and that white women benefit from it. I've been saying that all along. I'm still making that argument because without AA Asians would not have even been given the chance in the first place and it still protects Asians because it makes sure schools give them a shot, which is especially important considering some of the anti-asian people the president has surrounded himself with. America is not color-blind so it's not ready for color blind policies.

    Difference is, people bring up and argue individual cases. You, or anyone else here, have not.

    You are arguing that an unknown asian student should get in over an unknown black student.

    I asked who has it discriminated against, you will need an actual individual.

    The age of college-aged latinos and blacks surpasses the demographics of schools in California. Are you now saying that UC Berkley and other California schools are discriminating against them?

    What number has Harvard capped Asians at? I will ask you this question continuously until you answer it.
     
  15. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    In theory I guess that could happen, but in reality? Black students have on average the worst test scores and lowest GPA's, when universities get an application from a black student with the grades and test scores, it's basically an automatic acceptance to fulfill diversity quotas that you call AA.

    You keep changing the argument, the racially discriminatory policy against Asians has nothing to do with legacies. Also, when it comes to Asians, they've always actually made the grades, they've never needed AA....in fact since they've always made the grades AA has only hurt them because it allows less qualified people to be picked over them.

    I'm arguing that an unknown Asian student with superior grades and test scores should get in over an unknown black, white, or Hispanic student with lower grades and lower test scores. You are arguing that the Asian should be discriminated against on the basis of their race so that they would be passed up for those with lower test scores and lower grades. You are making this argument because you know that the "tribe" that you wish to champion has the lowest average test scores and lowest average grades and discriminatory policies will allow some less qualified students to be accepted over the Asians who have the best test scores and best grades.

    No, but if on average they had better test scores and better grades you could make a case for it....and I would actually. If Hispanics and blacks had the highest test scores and grades and their numbers were seemingly being suppressed, I'd be all over that. In reality, they have the worst test scores and worst grades, so the numbers are likely a result of that....especially when you factor in that California schools can't discriminate based on race or ethnicity.....which is why the Asian population at California state schools is so high compared to schools who do discriminate based on race and ethnicity.

    I showed you a chart earlier on the subject, They appear to have the number capped somewhere right around 15% despite the number of Asian applicants skyrocketing.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    You were referring to the last sentence in the first paragraph, I assume, which is indeed a racist statement. I had to look at an ignored member to see what you were upset about. You've got a couple of options. You can put the bigot on ignore and let others deal with him (my choice), or you can report it. I've done a lot of the former (up to 50 members on ignore now, almost all because of bigoted statements, bigoted posts, bigoted "jokes"), and some of the latter, from time to time. You're call.
     
  17. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    No, in reality, it happens. Not in theory. Please refer to Fisher v Texas.

    It has to do with legacies, spots are limited, legacies take these spots. If you got rid of legacies, you'd have more spots for any other people.

    Again. Harvard accepts students with lesser test scores no matter the race. They accept asians with lower test scores. They reject students with perfect test scores.

    You can keep saying "but better test scores!" and Harvard is not listening. They are not in the business of recruiting SAT masters, they are in the business of recruiting students of various talents, if you meet whatever minimal SAT score they have and you play Violin and the other person doesn't, well then, you are more valuable to Harvard regardless of your test score.

    I don't know how many times I have to say this. When a Harvard Professor is telling you it's not done how you think it is done, you should just humbly listen and accept that maybe your argument is against a holistic approach and not Affirmative Action.

    Well, first of all, that graph is a little outdated, but it shows through the years that numbers have not been the same. Just because more Asian students apply to Harvard doesn't mean they should get in.

    You are going by ONE school

    That is a STEM school, a STEM school which makes sense that they would be stricter on test scores. If you're judging kids on their math skills, well, a test is good at judging a kid on math.

    Let us look at another top school in Cali...

    Stanford is an elite school, it compares to Harvard. If your kid gets accepted to Stanford and Harvard, you'd be ecstatic. Now, let's look at the demo of Stanford.

    Stanford: 7% black, 22% Asian, 15% Hispanic, 36% white
    A quick google search and provided by Stanford.

    Just like Harvard, Stanford ALSO has 22% Asian...now you're argument was that a school in California which doesn't have AA shows that Harvard is capping its Asian population...so, Stanford, a Californian school, an elite university, like Harvard or Caltech, has demographic numbers similar to Harvard.

    What is the explanation? Does Stanford also have a quota? Why is Stanford allowed to have a 22% Asian demo and Harvard not? I was thinking, like the Jewish thing, that there had been evidence from a dean saying racist things against Asians or something but...alas...

    Also, you say that since Asians are scoring well on tests it should reflect in their numbers. It does. They are 5.2% of the USA as of 2015...and make up 22% of the incoming Harvard class. It could be that it is 22% and not 30% because so many of them are going to Caltech. It could be that Stanford's number for black students isn't higher because so many are going to Harvard. There is a limited number of elite students too, remember that.

    In the end, I don't know the alternative. Even if you get rid of AA, as Stanford has shown, they could still seek a diverse campus and still do AA secretly, nothing actually is stopping them from that...and if you force them to go by test scores...well...it seems very anti-libertarian to me and promise me 10 years from now you won't be complaining about the Great Asian incursion (As Bannon already has) and how they are taking over our instittuions and maybe we should build a big seawall in the pacific!
     
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  18. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    I'm enjoying your posts in this thread. I can give an example of an "out of the mainstream" student selected by Harvard for their MBA program. My significant other helped him with his application (she was a state executive at the time, retired now) and I was there, reading it over. Both of us told our friend that it was "too aggressive," not what we expected at all. Some background. My friend is from a working class family, he's White, and was working as a machinist for Hughes Tool for a few years. Reaching a dead end there, he went to UT using credit cards, finishing in 3 years, and then applied to Stanford and Harvard. He was disappointed at not getting into Stanford (which didn't surprise us at all) and we were shocked that Harvard picked him. We kidded around that they must have had a slot for a White working class self-motivated student. He's done many things since graduating from Harvard with that MBA. Today, he's the CFO for a regional company in the Southeastern United States.

    People like the fellow you are conversing with like to have things in neat little boxes. They can't stand ambiguity and they can't stand their "race" suffering from what they see as injustice. Right now, he's picking on the Black community and Harvard. As you've attempted to tell him, there are a host of reasons people get selected, and their race often has nothing to do with it. In fact, I would argue that it usually has little to do with anything except making an attempt to give people that have never had a break in their lives a break. It can be due to their race, and other factors, or, like with my friend, it can have nothing to do with race, with the "other factors" providing the tipping point in his favor.

    You (and FB) have far more patience with the members you are trying to reason with than I do. Good luck.
     
  19. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    Your story reminds me of a long article I read somewhere, forgot where, but the gist of it was about how hard it was to get accepted into multiple Ivy league schools or elite schools, how rare it is, just because they all have their own criteria...and it is judged by actual people, not machines. People that read the letters, the recommendations, and also, as the professor I linked mentioned, are swayed by the band that they want a certain student because of their talents.

    I think that conservatives, many of them like things in black and white, not that it is a wrong way to look at things, but in this case it is. It ignores that kids get into Harvard for various reasons.


    So the idea of a student doing better on a test, having a better GPA, and not getting a spot to them feels like injustice to them. This is why no matter what for him it comes back to the test scores, the GPA, although we know it doesn't solely come down to that.

    I'm close to my end with him on this subject because he doesn't counter my post, that time he did, I don't mind a discussion if it is fair. You throw your best at me and I throw my best at you. With Moniker, I understand where he is coming from. I do understand the argument against AA. In a perfect world, be rid of it. I agree. I just don't think the world is perfect and I don't think its existence is harming anyone. to a great degree. I feel like those Asian kids that do get shut out of Harvard are going to other top schools.

    AA should be looked at, it should be changed, but color blind? With some of the things we've had SCOTUS judges say? Some of the things we've had presidents say? Bannon was in Trump's ear and said flatly that there were too many Asians in silicon valley. This country is not ready for color blind policies, so I still support AA as a check, a regulation of sorts, that is there as a reminder to colleges to give others a shot.

    Right now though, anyone that wants to get into college can, don't be jealous of the black kid that got into Harvard. Work on yourself is what I'd say...and Harvard isn't the only school in the world that offers credibility and a good education.
     
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  20. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Very well said, JayGoogle. Maybe the earth will tilt on its axis, say "Howdy!," and some of that will actually sink in the guy's noggin. :cool:
     

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