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CP3 has a better WS, BPM, VORP, PER, and onoff than westbrook

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Air Langhi, Dec 1, 2019.

  1. larsv8

    larsv8 Contributing Member

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    Who cares? Its not relevant to this discussion.
     
  2. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    Well, for starters, DA Jordan is not a legit Allstar IMO. He had a very good year.

    And Griffin isn't the smartest player, a very good player.

    Glenn Rivers did rely on 4 Allstars to win his lone championship though.

    I am not going to delve into that though.
     
  3. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    You want to do this same thing to players on OKC since Durant left?
     
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  4. Reeko

    Reeko Member

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    numbers are cool, but I don’t trust CP’s health...I was done with this dude after last year’s playoffs
     
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  5. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    No, not really, thanks.
     
  6. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    I didn't ignore the stats, But you used those stats as if they told the full story and I was showing why that isn't the case. Then you used the percentile of ISO stats which would tell you that Dragic is a better ISO player than Harden. Do you believe that? I'm just against this mentality of "Well, these are the numbers that I've chosen to use, can't argue against these numbers." Yeah...yeah you can.

    Using net rating we can conclude that the Mavs are better off without Porzingis, right? After all, Doncic plays better with him off the floor and the Mavs play better with him off the floor...or maybe..maybe it's a guy who came off a serious injury and is adjusting to a new team?

    Or how the Rockets offensive efficiency is worse with Westbrook, true too, but then you are ignoring the poor shooting from the entire team outside of Harden and Tucker...I'm not ignoring that, I'm explaining the context of the stats. I think that's completely relevant.

    What I'm against mostly is this attitude that we were just better off with CP3. We were not. He's old. He's about at the age where NBA players, star players, take a huge decline in performance, Russ is years away from that with all of his warts.
     
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  7. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    I don't think Jordan is either but still, those Clipper teams never even reached a conference finals. despite all the hype around them.

    Someone brought up that outside of his tenure with Harden that CP3 has been an underacheiver in the playoffs, I didn't think about it, but that's true. None of his teams ever really did anything in the playoffs, they all fizzled away.

    2016-17, the years before coming to the Rockets, they lost in the first round 2 consecutive years after being bounced by Josh Smith, Corey Brewer, and Dwight Howard basically which I guess broke that teams confidence or something, they were never the same after.

    It's not all CP3s fault, Blake Griffin is...Blake Griffin...I do think Doc is a good coach though, every coach needs talent to win...but I think it's unfair to say it is none of CP3s fault.

    Yes, Thunder blowing that lead against the Warriors is Russ fault, it's Durant's too, I remember that series Russ had some games where he dominated and honestly if we are in a playoff series and we can get a game or two out of Russ where he dominates then that's fine by me. Just tired of seeing it be either Harden or bust.

    Remember that first series against GSW? Pisses me off thinking about it. Harden almost stole two games on the road but no one else shows up. Dwight was bullied by Bogut for most of that series, if Dwight shows up Harden has a completely different narrative right now. Harden shows up in the playoffs it's just that he always has those dud games that stick out. I honestly think this is true for most star players, it's just that the championship players always have another guy to pick them up when they are having that dud game. No one is perfect. But yeah, I've rambled here.
     
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  8. larsv8

    larsv8 Contributing Member

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    No stat says Dragic is a better ISO player than Harden, especially when combined with other stats to get the full picture.

    No, it says the Mavs have performed better with him off the floor. At which point you say, well why, and then draw the reasonable conclusion that he is coming off an injury and he deserves more time.

    Poor shooting is constant among Harden and Westbrook's teamMates. It is not an excuse or a context to any stat.

    RUSS IS NOT YEARS AWAY FROM THAT. He has ALREADY cratered. He has already taken a huge decline in performance. He is worse than CP3 and has been for 2+ years.
     
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  9. DaBeard

    DaBeard Member

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    If you think in the year 2019 that CP3 is better than Russell Westbrook seek help.
     
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  10. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    Maybe I am wrong on this, yet I do think the Clippers were actually cheered on than being hyped.

    Then they had numerous years under a racist owner while being in the shadows of the Mighty Lakers.

    I mean we are talking about the Clippers, a franchise that was so bad in the past. The Chris Paul trade just gave them hope.

    Yeah, Chris Paul isn't really a scorer, I think, if he were, it would have been different, he did indeed have his fair share of failures.

    For me he was always a defensive PG, that could do it all and score when he is called upon but not always.
     
  11. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    Sure, you can pick and choose which stats to fit a narrative.

    Russ is also injured and playing with a new team...

    We were talking about the offense as a whole and also Russ's game depends more on shooters because he moves the ball more than Harden and looks for assists more than Harden does. So yes, if guys are missing shots, it makes Russ look worse. Russ isn't out here trying to score 60 in 3 quarters, he's trying to get a triple double.

    No he hasn't, his %s are pretty similar to his other years, it could be just that he's playing with a new team, a team that basically his play style doesn't fit with, and that the chemistry of the team is just not on and affecting Westbrook.

    You were willing to make this excuse for a lesser player, Porzingis, and not Westbrook.
     
  12. harold bingo

    harold bingo Udoka Only Fan
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    I guess I'll bite, I believe this. That doesn't mean I think Porzingis is bad, or that they shouldn't play him, they absolutely should, because they need to get that thing figured out. And once they get it figured out, they will be a better team. But if we're talking specifically about what you said here, then yeah, I think the Mavs would be better if Porizingis had played 0 minutes so far this season. And I don't think that because of the numbers, I've been watching them on league pass all year and that was my assessment before seeing those numbers. They confirm my eye test.
     
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  13. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    Yeah you may be right, I do think they were favored to win before the Warriors dynasty popped up, they were tagged next and then the Rockets team with that super improbably comeback basically ended that.

    Sort of reminds me how devastating losing a playoff series can be. Trailblazers breaking up the Thunder last year...Warriors breaking up the Rockets too since losing to them without Durant basically destroyed morale...and Warriors ended the Durant-Westbrook duo when they came back against them too.

    Chris Paul was a great player, we saw that in his one year with him, I think if we had gotten CP3 instead of Dwight at the time we would have won at least one championship.

    I'm not here to crap on CP3s legacy, I realize he has not played with the best of players, but yeah his lack of scoring has hurt him in that case too since he had to defer to guys like Blake Griffin...but CP3 is going to go down as a top 10 all time PG obviously.
     
  14. J Sizzle

    J Sizzle Member

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    Russell Westbrook has shot below 40% on 30, 27, and 22 shots per game in the playoffs the last 3 years. He is shooting a career-worst 22% from 3 this year. He has been eliminated in the first round each of the past 3 years.. He is still unquestionably a worse defender than Chris Paul.

    I certainly hope you are right
     
  15. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    We actually agree since I said the mavs should play Porzingis.

    I think both things are true. That he makes them worse now but that they should still play him because they have to figure out how it will work out and he's still a player that should make them better...if he doesn't he's still at least tradeable.

    I feel the same with Russ. We have to figure it out so he has to play. It reminds me of Harden and Dwight. The two never meshed on court...they should have meshed, after all, Dwight is just a better Clint...except Dwight wanted post touches and the offense ran through him far too often. Difference with Russ is he's a better teammate (reportedly) than Dwight...if Dwight just accepted his role as a roll man, garbage bucket guy, taking shots only directly around the rim he would have thrived here. Thrived.

    Russ is already changing his game he's taken a lot less 3s the past few games, he's taken one 3 the past two games and his +/- has immediately improved because of it and it will be interesting to see if he continues this because if he does then it's definitely something the coach has emphasized him to stop doing. I think it's key to keep Russ under 3 3pointers a game because we want him moving forward and not standing still, when Russ is moving he's a threat.
     
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  16. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    Porz and Luka have 10 more years than Russ to win a ship or to make the Finals.

    I think it is really too early to suggest what Porz can be after coming back from his injury.
     
  17. jordnnnn

    jordnnnn Member

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    Dwight and Harden in there first two years together were magnificent. They meshed VERY well and we kicked ass with either one on the court.

    13/14
    Harden +7.2
    Howard +7.0

    14/15
    Harden +5.7
    Howard +9.3

    This hasn’t been the case with Westbrook. Westbrook hasn’t sniffed a season as good as Howard’s first 2 years in Houston since his miracle MVP. And since that time it’s been a sharp decline.

    I admire your optimism that things will change with him. But it’s not happening yet.

    % of shots that are 2s

    18/19 : 72.1
    19/20 : 72.2

    % of shots that are 3s

    18/19 : 27.9
    19/20 : 27.8

    % of shots from midrange

    18/19 : 36.0
    19/20 : 37.7

    It’s almost identical.

    House, Tucker, Harden are all having career efficiency years. Capela is essentially at his career average of efficiency and somehow some way Westbrook( the most inefficient high volume shooter, maybe ever) is NOT the reason our efficiency is at a 4 year low?
     
  18. HewbieTrippin

    HewbieTrippin Member

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    CP3 should be the "main guy" in OKC, but if you watch their games, he regularly defers to giving opportunities both to Gigleous-Alexander and Shroeder, and trying to set up Galinari for 3s. Watching it, people may wonder why he seems so disinterested (instead of playing to up his value and get traded to a contender), but imo, he's actually just being a professional in still giving good effort while mentoring/deferring for long stretches to the up-and-coming guards so that they can develop. In close games though, you'll see him take the primary playmaker role though and he's come up fairly well in those games, though they're against average teams at best.

    I don't think cp3's numbers will ever be as high as Russ' but I think it's also cuz he's never taken that many shot attempts on average for the majority of his career, doesn't have the physical gifts that Russ has, and as stated above, is not dominating the ball as the clear #1 option right now in OKC. A lot of this is probably cuz cp3 cant get off the shots he wants at this point in his career versus russ who wants the types of shots he's getting despite coverting it at a fairly inefficient rate). Thus, cp3's numbers are going to average about what they are right now, which isn't bad: 16 pts, 6 assists, 4 rebs, & 2 steals per game, on 46% from the field. Given how much he's deferring usage rate this year, he's been incredibly efficient.
     
    #158 HewbieTrippin, Dec 3, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019
  19. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    The Rox are playing at a faster pace obv efficiency would be low as they are trying to replace quality with quantity. With only 7 secs or w/e per possession then the wont get the best shot all the time unlike when they had one of the slowest pace in the league.

    Oth more pace = more attempts. More attempts = more chances to score. That is better for the Rox cuz they have never been extremely accurate anyway, esp in the playoffs.

    House, Tucker, Capela all having efficiency years, you think WB has nothing to do with that? He is the one making things happen on the court, if the stats you are looking at dont show he is making a positive impact or makes him look worse than an average NBA player then sorry you are probably looking at the wrong stats.

    Morey is the pioneer of statistical analysis yet he keeps bringing in all these big names even if they can be inefficient like Melo and WB, even Cp3 who was a career choker in Clippers. Clearly his models see something you don't otherwise he wouldnt sign on a "below average replacement player" making the max.
     
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  20. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    He was never a choker...sheesh,
     
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