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Charging Fouls need to be reduced or eliminated entirely

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by SamFisher, Dec 4, 2019.

  1. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    This isn't just because of the Spurs drawing multiple charges in OT last night, it's because charging has become a ridiculous exercise, though that illustrates it.

    1) The Rules as Written and Enforced Make No Sense

    When I was younger, I remember charging being an actual charge. There was no restricted area, but you had to earn your charge by being more or less stationary and being bowled over by the defender, usually under the basket. Was teh defender set? That's where the evaluation was

    This is how I remember it - I suppose this started ending as the Pistons and the 1990's ushered in the defense heavy era.

    Recently though it seems like you earn a charge by backpedaling, having two feet outside the restricted area, and dragging two feet inbounds like an NFL wide receiver, regardless if your momentum is taking you away from the spot (or even toppling over due to your own inertia).

    Also, read this mishmash - it makes very little sense. I don't blame the officials for not really knowing what to do with this, what does "establish" mean? Both feet on the ground simultaneously? Both feet not moving? One foot but not moving? Both feet down for more than 1 second? t doesn't actually say. And the "speed-distance" ratio? How do you enforce that with any consistency? And even finally the last qualifer that "each situation shall be judged individually" is

    C. BLOCK-CHARGE

    A defensive player is permitted to establish a legal guarding position in the path of a dribbler regardless of his speed and distance.

    A defensive player is not permitted to move into the path of an offensive player once he has started his upward motion to attempt a field goal or pass.

    A defensive player must allow a moving player the opportunity to avoid contact when the offensive player receives a pass outside the lower defensive box. The lower defensive box is the area between the 3-foot posted-up marks, the bottom tip of the circle and the endline.

    A defensive player must allow an airborne player the opportunity to land and then avoid contact when the offensive player is outside the lower defensive box.

    A defensive player is permitted to establish a legal guarding position in the path of an offensive player who receives a pass inside the lower defensive box regardless of his speed and distance.

    A defensive player must allow an airborne player who receives a pass the space to land when the offensive player is inside the lower defensive box.

    A player must allow a moving opponent without the ball the opportunity to avoid contact if he moves into his path.

    The speed of the player will determine the amount of distance an opponent must allow.

    If an offensive player causes contact with a defensive player who has established a legal position, an offensive foul shall be called and no points may be scored. A defensive player may turn lightly to protect himself, but is never allowed to bend over and submarine an opponent.

    An offensive foul should not be called for charging if the contact is with a secondary defensive player who has established a defensive position within a designated “restricted area” near the basket for the purpose of drawing an offensive foul. The offensive player must take a path directly to the rim. The “restricted area” for this purpose is the area bounded by an arc with a 4-foot radius measured from the center of the basket ring.

    EXCEPTION: Any player may be legally positioned within the “restricted area” if the offensive player receives the ball within the Lower Defensive Box.

    The mere fact that contact occurs on these type of plays, or any other similar play, does not necessarily mean that a personal foul has been committed. The officials must decide whether the contact is negligible and/or incidental, judging each situation separately.

    An offensive foul shall be assessed if the player initiates contact in a non-basketball manner (leads with his foot, an unnatural extended knee, etc.).​

    2) Charging calls make the officials the primary actors in the game

    We've all seen this happen a billion times. Referees absolutely love the performative aspect of a charging call.

    Late in the game, offensive palyers drives, the home crowd is screaming Defense - COLLISION! WHISTLE!

    The home crowd groans and curses, in hesitation, did they just give up a foul? OH NO, WAIT, WHAT'S THAT, BAH GOD, KING, BAH GOD, THAT'S SCOTT FOSTER'S/TONY BROTHERS/KEN MAUER/LEON WOOD/HAYWOODE WORKMAN'S MUSIC

    Cut to the referee, what's that, oh, he's winding up, he's winding up like HIdeo Nomo on the 95 L.A, Dodgers, and he begins his sprint towards half court, ....BOOM, he flings his entire body with his outstretched arm pointing....THE OTHER WAY. It's a CHARGE, the good guys win, THE CROWD GOES WILD!

    As amusing as it can be - Nobody wants this ****. Players should be the focus.


    So let's get rid of charging calls. Either make the restricted area bigger (the whole key is a good place to start, that wya nobody has to spend money on extra paint) or require the defender to do something other than take a charge (try to block or contest a shot or strip the ball, for example, rather than just get to a spot and hope for a call)

    People who hate offense will cry, but they cried about the elimination of hack-a's too, and they were incredibly wrong about that. It was pure upside.
     
  2. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    Just get rid of blocking/ charges all together.
     
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  3. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

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    [​IMG]
     
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  4. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    Block/charges are a serious injury risk and ruin a lot of great plays -- just play defense and contest the dunk/ layup or get out of the way.
     
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  5. pahiyas

    pahiyas Member

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    Agree.
    Exception: If the player used his shoulder to charge/block, it should be called accordingly. Vertical collisions, play on.
     
  6. jcmoon

    jcmoon Contributing Member

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    Harden and Westbrook need to just adjust and realise that they're not going to get those close calls when they are driving in looking for a foul...I think that's the real issue and it is what it is. The other fans don't like it.
     
  7. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    I'm not really referring just to them though. They're not driving looking for a foul, they're driving because of the shot chart and that's how they create points, whether through shooting or passing.

    The foul is a nice plus factor/modifier, but even if they didn't get a call it's still a good shot for them to take (particularly Russ since he can't hit **** otherwise, but I digress)

    Contrast this with the defender who leaps to the side, Chris Paul, style, in an attempt to get into the path and "establish" a position under the Rule guideline in accordance witht the "speed-distance" ratiio, who holds his arms in tight and braces for contact.

    He's looking for a call only.

    That's
    the type of bheavior that should be eliminated.

    That's why people getting upset at Harden getting fouled on teh stepback are clownish. Even if he doesn't get fouled, he's taking a good shot. He's not shooting just to look for a call, but to make a basket.
     
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  8. Jontro

    Jontro Member

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    they should also get rid of that semi circle under the rim
     
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  9. jcmoon

    jcmoon Contributing Member

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    Really? Sometimes they're driving to score and sometimes they are just driving looking for a whistle with no really good shot available...IMO

    Especially Russ, driving to the side, hoping to create a little contact...

    And then they pout when they don't get the call and don't get back on D
     
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  10. josuegarza91

    josuegarza91 New Member

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    I think that they should remove the charging call. I mean cmon, either block/contest the shot or get out the way. Dont just fall back! I think that would avoid a lot of the flailing that goes on in the NBA.
     
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  11. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    Yes, really. Going to the basket is something players naturally do to score baskets. Do you seriously dispute this?

    Jumping in front of them with your hands held in is not a really good way to stop them.....unless you are trying to draw a charge and nothing else.

    It's pretty simple.

    Rules should encourage the game we want (players trying to score) vs things we don't (a move that exists solely to get a call, flopping,theatrucal referee calls).

    That's why the hacka was eliminated.
     
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  12. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    boomer alert
     
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  13. hitman1900

    hitman1900 Member

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    What would happen though? You can't just bowl your way to the basket either ala Shaq, where's the fine line?
     
  14. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    1. We allow it in the restricted area and carnage doesn't ensue. It doesn't mean anything goes of course, you can't elbow or clothesline the defender. So, expand the restricted area then.

    2. You could also move to stricter enforcement. Defensive player has to occupy a position for a full second, or something like that. If that sounds hard to enforce, look at the unholy interpretation salad that is the NBA's present guidance on the rule, which uses words like "establish" that can mean anything.
     
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  15. Zboy

    Zboy Contributing Member

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    All we ask for is consistency.

    Modify the rules so that in order for a charge to be ruled, two defenders need to be there side by side, with both holding their ground and not moving, with at least 3 out of 4 legs outside of the circle, with neither of them over 6-3 in or taller, and all three refs blowing the whistle for the charge.
     
  16. TimDuncanDonaut

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    I see the case for both sides. But didn't Bullard mention Tuck is 3rd leading in taking charges this year. NBA defenders are already limited in what they can do.

    Imagine Giannis, Lebron or Embid bulldozing defenders more then they already are.

    Not gonna lie, the Spurs game hurt, the refs should have counted Harden's dunk that went through the net.

    If debating tweaking the rule then I'm maybe for it. Or our defenders do the same in future games.
     
  17. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    Is this about the final charge Harden got? I need to see the video again, but it looked like the right call to me. At the very worst, it’s 50/50, but if I’m the home team I’d be livid if an opposing player (who already got 24 free throws that game) got a call like that.

    Maybe if Harden has some sort of in between game he wouldn’t have made it so easy for the defense to draw that charge in the end.
     
  18. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    No, I didn't really rewatch it, ti could have been a valid charge.

    It was clear though that the Spurs whole strategy was "look for charges, don't contest any shots" down the stretch, and it's the newfangled type of charge that wouldn't have been interpreted as a charge in the 80's where a guy basically had to be set with his feet planted and not moving at all, not backpedal/slide in for help defense charges that seem to be called today (guys in the 80's didn't rotate or help defend as much, so that might be part of it?).

    It seems like this is a new development - the wholesale abandonment of contesting the ball to draw a charge - that has developed over the past decade or so.

    Again, couple this with the theatrical aspect of referees absolutely relishing calling charges and the documented homecourt bias in close calls, you have a bad recipe.

    I don't think the game needs it, regardless of how the Rockets play. It's like the hack-a. Limit it accordingly, just like it was limited when the restricted area was added.
     
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  19. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    I think Euro steps should be outlawed.
     
  20. Stephen_A

    Stephen_A Member

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    Offensive fouls are quite disruptive and often called when players flop. Whatever happened to penalizing floppers anyway? That’s almost extinct this year. Seems like offensive fouls are akin to the NFLs penalties against defensive players hitting “defenseless” offensive players driving everyone nuts. Flopping is quite ridiculous and it seems as if referees and rules committee or whoever writes these things never played basketball before. I’ve never played at the collegiate or pro level but I’ve played high school, street ball, intramurals and pickup games since 8 to current but falling down when an guy posts you up or drives the lane is rare. If you’re a grown man with average strength and athleticism it’s hard to knock someone down in basketball unless someone really collides into you running through you usually out of control and at high speed hurting them and you at the same time usually violent collisions. Also falling down happens when you’re defending and get caught In the air at a bad angle. Falling down also happens when legs get tangled or get crossed up. But In my 25 plus years of playing the game really falling down as a defensive player is hard. Just hate it to see these professional athletes fall down when a player is simply driving to the basket in a half court set in a controlled fashion. Lol what do you guys think? Maybe I’m not a pro or collegiate athlete but falling down as a defensive player is rare to me.
     
    #20 Stephen_A, Dec 4, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
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