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Breaking: Trump's Wall

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Carl Herrera, Dec 18, 2018.

  1. Buck Turgidson

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    #1521 Buck Turgidson, Jan 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
    Rashmon, No Worries and NewRoxFan like this.
  2. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    so I take it they hired an actor to play Obama's border patrol chief? bastards!
     
  3. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    So, an associate professor of philosophy who is also anti-immigration? Based on his belief that poor immigrants will want to come to the U.S. to become prosperous, and thus add to global warming? And... that makes this better? And note his less than honest answer to the question about China's "one-child" policy. And the U.S. should start population control programs now.

    So... this is the CIS member you are supporting???

    https://www.nationalreview.com/energy-week/debating-phil-cafaro-robert-zubrin/
     
  4. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    I'M NOT SUPPORTING ANYONE. YOU are the one who called the environmental argument against immigration and for the wall "laughable." I simply replied that the idea was not necessarily laughable and provided evidence that at least one scholar in academia has made the kind of arguments you described and dismissed as "laughable." I do not agree with the arguments, in fact I find them abhorrent. If you would ever take the time to simply think through what you type you would probably be less quick to jump to conclusions. jesus christ

     
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  5. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    Sorry if me pointing out the organization and even individual you post to make whatever political point you intend to make is upsetting. I think challenging CIS and its member's political points IS important, in whatever context. And my argument (using an environmental argument to support the wall) is still laughable. The fact you argue against that by posting someone who argues "allowing immigrants into the U.S. because those immigrants will want to be successful and thus add to global warming" is not only laughable, but horrific at the same time. Especially when that same person argues for "population control".

    Just the fact that the person arguing this is an associate professor of philosophy (or "scholar in academia") doesn't make it less laughable. I am sure I can find other insane ideas written and published by college professors... if being a professor and writing a paper is the only measure of being a serious argument.

    Last, while you write that you find Cafaro's argument abhorrent... perhaps you might have included that in your original response where you first cited CIS. You seem to want to post right wing (and in this case, extremist and hateful right wing sources) to each discussion. Are we to think you believe them, or simply posting them to spark debate? Perhaps saying "here is what the right wing response is" . Although posting anything from the CIS should be a red flag that an organization that even in its current marketing ("low immigrant, pro immigrant") is still spewing hateful research to support the original goals of its white nationalist beginnings (stop immigration and eugenics). Perhaps you should think through the content you cite and others including myself might not jump to conclusions.
     
    #1525 NewRoxFan, Jan 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
  6. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    so what does this have to do with your vanity wall again?
     
  7. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    OK, which one of you trumpsters went out to dinner and left this?

     
  8. mdrowe00

    mdrowe00 Member

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    :D...Ken Hamm has all kinds of degrees in...whatever he has all kinds of degrees in...

    ...and he's sold a lot of people on dinosaurs only being a couple thousand years old...

    ...or the entire planet Earth, for that matter...
     
  9. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    This guy is one of trump's main advisers...

     
  10. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    That's fine. He probably knows what he's talking about, though I notice they don't quote him on context much. He talks about its impact in Yuma County, but he doesn't say anything (that was quoted) about how well it would work in, say, Brewster County.

    I find the efficacy argument almost completely irrelevant at this point though. My problem, as it is with most things Trump, is with process. He came in with the wall as a campaign slogan and now feels compelled to build it regardless of whether it is a good idea. He didn't study the best way to secure the border before he made it a talking point. And he's not trying to logically persuade the public even now. No explanation of which 234 miles of border would get this wall, or why those are the most critical miles. No explanation I've heard on why the wall is more pressing than improving ports of entry, where most contraband passes. No explanation of why we're addressing the border wall instead of visa overstays. As for impacts, Trump insists the wall will be beautiful (pssst... no, it won't be) but otherwise says nothing about concerns about environmental damage or eminent domain. All we get for persuasion is some FUD about rapists, caravans, and MS13. So walls (some walls in some places for some purposes) work. Big whup. Doesn't mean we should build them.

    Lol, are you trying to illustrate my point? Okay, drug cartels are murdering each other over control of the drug market. Therefore...?

    FYI, the two links you provided seem to indicate the paper was published in both places at the same time. I've done this before a few times. From what I've seen, I would guess that CIS paid him to do the research and paper. He published in the academic journal for his own academic career. The CIS also likes it so they have 'third party validation' for their point of view. They can say it's not them saying it but this disinterested social science researcher. And, I think there's validity to that. The academics I've worked with connected to schools keep themselves at arm's length and won't be told what to say. They will say something that is true. But then the sponsor wouldn't fund them if they didn't know the scholar was going to say something that would support their position. So we will find the things promoted by sponsors like CIS and any countervailing argument without a sponsor will die a silent death in some academic journal.

    That said, the argument seems like a slam dunk. If someone leaves a Guatemalan village where they don't even have a mule, never mind a car or electricity, and comes to the US, they're carbon footprint necessarily will expand. But of course you should not leave people in desperate poverty in order to minimize their carbon output. That's what makes the environmental argument disingenuous -- not because it's not true but because its despicable.
     
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  11. RayRay10

    RayRay10 Houstonian

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    Snopes took on the 90% reduction in illegal immigration and how the wall affected that. There's some truth there, but it relies on manipulation of numbers. Also, Yuma County is mentioned offten, however, Republicans aren't mentioning the Rio Grande Valley Sector, which actually saw a jump in border apprehensions after a wall was built there.
    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/border-traffic-drop-barriers/

     
  12. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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  13. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    secure border >>>>>>>>> your vanity wall

    and I thought Mexico was gonna pay for your vanity wall? why beg money from congress?
     
  14. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    You labeling something a "vanity wall" doesn't change the fact that we're still talking about the same kind of thing Democrats supported for decades before they changed their minds simply due to Trump being the guy pushing for it. Rolling with that kind of stupid rhetoric only serves to end conversation as it kills your credibility on the issue.
     
  15. IVFL

    IVFL Member

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    Democrats are not against stronger borders. They are against wasting money on an ineffective wall that will do nothing to slow illegal immigration. Dump that 5 billion into people on the front lines working with people who are here illegally, put it into better means of catching people who are coming to the country illegally and I think you get their support. Funny, I thought conservatives were against government waste. Guess that's off the platform with Trump as well.
     
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  16. jcf

    jcf Member

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    Os posts articles and informations to get us talking/thinking. That is what (I believe) this site is for. It is like some folks need to know what "team" a poster is on to decide how to treat that poster. Os in one of my favorite posters who provides a lot of information to think about (whether one agrees with it or not), and I still have very little idea what he believes. I'm not all that interested in just seeing things I already believe or agree with.
     
  17. Newlin

    Newlin Member

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    Also, Democrats don't want American taxpayers to pay for something that Trump promised Mexico would pay for.

    If another country wants to pay to build a big beautiful wall on our southern border, well ok. Just don't ask me to pay for it, that's not what was promised.
     
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  18. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    Yeaaaaah but they are
     
  19. WNBA

    WNBA Member

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    I don't see any problem here. Trump is truly an immoral racist. The words on his wall will be "stay away from our white home".
     
  20. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    Mexico should build a wall of their side, to keep those crazy ass, gun toting Americans out. amirite?

    I imagine on some soccer bbs in Mexico there is a @Cohete Rojo who keeps posting every mass shooting in the good ol' USA.
     

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