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68% of ______ __________ do not believe U.S. has responsibility to accept refugees

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Carl Herrera, Jul 11, 2019.

  1. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    If I may interject my opinion:

    I think its both political and ethnic tribalism. White evangelicals are more likely to believe the country is at its core a white and Christian nation and would be more reluctant to see the country lose that identity. I don't think the number would be nearly as high as 68% if the refugees we are talking about were white and Christian, like them.

    But the political polarization of the country and each side staking out a position that is in opposition to the other side also plays a role, sure.
     
  2. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Religion was part of politics back then. The idea of separation of church and state didn't exist.

    In fact, the Romans who conquered all of those lands were pretty laid back conquerors. The only thing that they required was that they worshiped the Roman emperor as a god.

    Many of the polytheistic societies didn't have a problem adding one more God to the list. But the Isaraelites did. There was no separation between govt. And religion. Jesus was most definitely political.
     
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  3. London'sBurning

    London'sBurning Contributing Member

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    And it's taught that Pontius Pilate was just as guilty and complicit in Jesus' crucifixion by letting the injustice of wrongfully murdering the human embodiment of God follow through. He had the authority to stop it, but just ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ instead.

    It's the equivalent of someone being murdered and you having the authority to prevent it knowing the reasons for murder are wrong but sitting back on a lawn chair, going back to the kitchen to microwave some popcorn and watch a public murder happen because it's what the people want.

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmond Burke. Pontius did nothing wrong. He just let God get murdered for no good reason. Sure he had the authority to prevent this wrong doing, but it's not like he physically nailed Jesus to the cross. He just let it happen under his watch. He's an innocent. :rolleyes:
     
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  4. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    We should accept them as citizens if they are fleeing war and violence. Our country is the size of Europe with half the population. We have so much room. And they would boast our economy. It's short-sighted to not want refugees because of what?

    Why is it that you never see conservative posters on this board condemn illegals from European countries but are all too happy to blame problems on people who travel 100's of miles and risk everything to escape persecution. I mean given what they have been through, you are getting tough hombres - the kind that buld a nation on their backs.
     
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  5. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    As a real liberal who dislikes illegals and their negative economic impact, which people continue to deny as if they are flat earthers, I have spoken against the European ones before. Specifically Irish people who I share blood with. There is no racism, skin issues, or ethnic issues about my position and many other people's; Simply math and economics. To deny the negative effects of illegal immigration and problems it creates is like climate denial. You can show the people the facts all day, but they'll find a way to just wiggle out of accepting reality because their delusions have been reinforced by a large section of our political establishment.
     
  6. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    I'm not Jewish and nor do I care. I am making a point that people can cherry pick whatever they want, whenever they want, and laughing at the notion that religion matters. We are a secular nation and I don't give a damn what a religion or religious figure would do when our country is run separately from that. Policy decisions and the such are dangerous when tied to religion.
     
  7. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    There really is no study that doesn't ignore one side of the ledger that concludes that illegal immigration is a bet drain on the US economy and federal deficit.

    The famous conservative ones that conclude a massive losses completely ignore the other side of the ledger such as illegals contributing payroll taxes through fake ss# and then never taking advantage of the money they put in to SS by never claiming it.

    So essentially your entire premise is based on one sided agenda driven studies.

    Real liberals don't disklike humans because they happened to slip out of vaginas with far worse circumstances than us and decided to move to better opportunities. In pragmatic terms, you can secure the border without being asshats to illegal immigrants. But many conservatives don't know how to do that. They lack that empathic gene.
     
  8. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    It's not being an asshat to disagree with your position you know. Nothing about it is being an asshat or disliking the people. Just because I don't want you in my home doesn't mean I dislike people. Also there are tons of people in bad circumstances in the U.S. Help them before you go helping other people I say. You may find that a bit tribal but you can deal with it.
     
  9. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    I'm sorry I took your text at literal value when you said "dislike illegals". Next time I'll try to do what Trump whisperers do in that they find an entirely different meaning from the words spoken or typed by said Individual.
     
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  10. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    You said I "disklike humans because they happened to slip out of vaginas with far worse circumstances than us and decided to move to better opportunities." I didn't know that encompassed all immigrants. Some of them immigrate legally and those people my friend... are wonderful! I like them. And people who don't enter illegally or over stay their visas. They are ok too despite their circumstances. Also my understanding and empathy takes me in a different direction from you. I think we should do more to keep these people in their homeland. Including helping our neighbors improve their homelands so they don't want to break laws and steal our resources and opportunities. I am more than happy to give because I'm not selfish. I would love to help Mexico sort itself out for instance, but letting all their malcontent people leave who could otherwise make changes there is a bad idea for all of Mexico and those people born in poor circumstances. The elite there actually encourage them to leave so they don't have to make conditions better. So the problem only gets worse because they use the border as a pressure release valve to avoid political pressure and movements of the people. In fact, it is less empathetic to want to take their best and strongest, and brightest, and leave their country to rot under an oppressive regime. You my friend lack empathy in the grand scheme because you're propping up the system that is crushing people into poverty. If people had to stay, they'd damn well start doing more about it.
     
  11. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    There are people, I’m thinking particularly single women with young kids, who are trying to escape super dangerous situations of violently abusive relationships and forced prostitution. Should they be turned away and left to their miserable fates?

    The problem seems to be that we can’t know precisely how bad each person’s situation really is before they enter. Should we err on letting in too many people, or too few?
     
  12. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    Religion matters far more to those trying to prevent them. This isn't cherry picking to decide to let them in. This is wondering how people can reconcile their Christian faith being a part of their views on abortion and marriage, but not on refugees.
     
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  13. Amiga

    Amiga I get vaunted sacred revelations from social media
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    Not all poor people are Refugee, not even close. We certainly can't help all poor people and we never had. But we do have US laws and international laws and norms in place since the early 60s (or maybe even earlier) about helping refugee. Since you incorrectly associate them with simply being poor, let's remind what is a refugee. One definition from the 1967 Refugee Protocol:

    "A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it."


    From your posting, your framing of you as the real victims is based on a wrong assumption that we are trying to help all of the "too many poor people". Do you still take that stance with the typical definition of a refugee... and if you do, what are you referring to? Economic loss and burden? Psychological harm? Other type of harm? How are you/we real victims from being "asked" to accept (and do accept) refugee?
     
  14. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    Not our job to protect everyone. Get your emotional garble out of here. World policing isn't a good idea.
     
  15. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    People from the left are arguing that illegals are simply refugees. That's really what the issue is and why people are anti-"refugee".

    As for refugees, it isn't the U.S.'s responsibility to just help someone if they are an actual refugee. If they have found a safe country, then they shouldn't migrate further.
     
  16. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    That's their issue I guess. I often wonder how anyone can claim to have a religious or moral high ground and support proxy wars, drone strikes, and other acts of extreme violence. I am sure many people who are white evangelical know that there is a limit to the nation's ability to help the world. Being helpful to the needy doesn't mean just give all your things over to everyone. There is a limit to how much people will practice their faith too. They likely aren't hardcore by the book after all, which I've said earlier is a good thing. We don't want hardcore religious fanatics trying to run the country by their book that they say is the right one usually because they were born into it.

    Regardless, we really do need to draw a line somewhere, and that line is called a border. This is not a new concept and has been well established. I won't debate the value of it either because if you need to go there then I'll just assume you're low IQ and a waste of time.
     
  17. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Not all illegals are refugees. Not all of those applying for refugee status qualify as refugees. That doesn't make them illegal either. Yet people who have the legal right to apply for refugee status are being treated in this inhumane manner.
     
  18. Amiga

    Amiga I get vaunted sacred revelations from social media
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    If I argue that high school grads are simply people holding a bachelor degree, should employers be anti-bachelor degree holders? Should employers no longer take bachelor degree as consideration for jobs? That's similar to what you are doing by stating that people are anti-refugee because they believe the folks on the left argue illegals are refugee.

    I don't think the people on the left are arguing that illegals are refugee. That's pretty silly. But they are arguing for more rights for illegals, and that could be seen as approaching the rights for refugee. This mix up along with multiple actions and reactions from both sides is what make the general immigration issue almost unsolvable. The action of this admin treatment of refugee - seeing them automatically as illegals, something that is not following international or US laws, norms and practice for the past few decades - is what lead the left (and more importantly, the politician on the left) to evolve their position to support additional rights for illegals when they did not in the past. That position lead those on the right to be very fearful and become more anti-immigration and anti-refugee. It's a cycle of stupid negative escalating reactions.

    I think the mass majority of the US still have a sensible view, but this muddy up of legals, illegals, migrants, refugee, all things immigration is too emotional for people to be able to state clearly their stance and people to be able to understand it and that mass majority is declining. The two extreme side is causing more people to no longer have views that is their own, but is largely dependent on and reactive to what they believe the other sides is doing or supporting, which they each see as extreme. The truth is really not on the two extreme, but somewhere in the middle. That doesn't mean Trump is not part of the extreme, clearly he is. It also doesn't mean there aren't dem that aren't on the other extreme - there are. But they were once a very small minority but has grown since 2017, and reflective in polling. It would be nice if the source of both of those extreme vanish away.

    You didn't respond to the 2nd part, which to me is more interesting that the first part. Do you care to elaborate more on "real victim"? Is this economic harms and/or other type of harms?
     
  19. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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  20. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    Not sure how what I’m describing is “world policing” while your suggestion of seeking to fix the problems in their home countries is not.

    The solution must entail both providing refuge for vulnerable people and finding a way to make their homes less dangerous so that they aren’t compelled to escape. But to refuse people whose lives are in danger and are seeking refuge here is just inhumane. It’s weird to me that you consider this somehow more “empathetic”.
     

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