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2018 Firefighters' Pay Proposition

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by JuanValdez, Sep 25, 2018.

  1. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    Enough with national politics. There's stuff in Houston that will actually impact our lives. City of Houston will have 2 propositions on the November ballot. Prop A is about creating a drainage fund, but it isn't getting much attention. The more controversial one is Prop B which would create pay parity between firefighters and police officers, which would force a big pay increase for the former and result in either layoffs or some fancy budget prestidigitation to make the new numbers work. Here's what the prop says. It is very... specific.


    So Houstonians and friends of Houston, for or against? Is it the right thing to do? And, right or wrong, would we be just shooting ourselves in the foot to do it?
     
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  2. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    Politically its tough to address firefighter pay. That being said firefighters here spend 2 whole 24 hour days at the station. They get 8 hours overtime a week.

    The problem is they hardly fight fires but if there is a big fire they're needed

    Edit: police on the other hand are always needed
     
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  3. cml750

    cml750 Member

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    Not living in Houston, I do not have a dog in the fight. I have not paid much attention to this so I do not know all of the details. I am curious what the Houston residents on here think about it.
     
  4. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    This started with their pension fund which had to be restructured. It has been a major city budget issue for several years.

    I have several friends who are firefighters. I don't think they're vastly overpaid. They just aren't needed as much imo but i am nort taking into consideration the paramedic services.
     
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  5. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    Usage is a factor I hadn't thought about, though they do show up as first responders in all kinds of emergencies. Maybe that's something we don't put much value on?

    On the pro side, I understand that a lot of cities take the approach Prop B is asking for and as a result pay for firefighters is higher elsewhere and we lose these workers to other cities. I have seen people argue this as though it were a regular market. That if you're losing employees, you'd raise pay, so our prevailing wages must be fair. That approach pretends like we have a market, when we don't, at least not a robust one. The employers are all government entities that don't have a profit motive and don't operate like rational market actors. They don't try to hire better employees to improve customer satisfaction; they just operate as a cost center trying to minimize costs. There is no true market feedback mechanism to inform business decisions. If we make a decision to change salaries it will be through an administrative fiat like this one.
     
  6. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Contributing Member
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    Im a little vague, but didn't the the firefighters make some deal with the city when every city employee was having pensions cut but firefighters would be exempt in exchange for no pay raises? Or something like that?

    Now they're acting like they weren't behind the fact that they're paid less and they still have the cushy pensions that everybody else gave up?

    Seems disingenuous to me. Give them pay raises and cut their pensions as happened to everybody else, if that's what they want. But they shouldn't have their cake and eat it too.

    I mean, assuming I don't have my facts all screwed up.
     
  7. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    I don't know all the history, so would appreciate anyone who could offer it. However, are you saying that working-age firefighters should accept lower pay so that retirement-age firefighters's pensions are secured? Wouldn't seem too fair.

    But, now that you mention it, there's no mention of pensions here, and the catch-all clause m says any compensation or benefit given to police should also be given to firefighters, but it does not specify that the equity should also flow the other way.
     
  8. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Contributing Member
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    I think that is the deal their union negotiated, but I could be wrong. And I have no problem with ending that, but think if they did make the deal, they should give back the pension cuts that everybody else working for the city took if they want their raises.
     
    #8 Ottomaton, Sep 26, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
  9. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Contributing Member
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    Update - I've been looking for what happened, and it appears that Sylvester Turner already cut their pensions last year, so the deal I'm thinking of, which would have been an Anise Parker deal, must already be off the table.
     
  10. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    Here is Mayor Turner's appeal to vote No. I think he makes some good arguments, though I'm not particularly persuaded by the warning that layoffs and other cuts to services will result. They probably would. But that's the fault of the stupid revenue cap. What I'm more persuaded by is that other elements of the relationship between the city and firefighters and police are not the same. Some of them could be made to be the same, but aren't addressed here (I imagine they'd become features of future negotiations with unions); others can't be made the same because the nature of the work is different. So, does it make sense to tie them at the hip on pay but not conditions?

    https://www.houstonchronicle.com/op...inst-Prop-B-because-firefighters-13232553.php

    Turner: Vote against Prop. B because firefighters deserve a raise the city can afford [Opinion]
    By Sylvester Turner Sep. 16, 2018 Updated: Sep. 16, 2018 4:06 p.m.

    I believe in equal pay for equal work, especially for city employees who put their lives at risk to save yours and mine.

    Proposition B — a city charter amendment proposal on the Nov. 6 city ballot as a result of a firefighters petition drive — wouldn’t achieve equal pay. In fact it would do the opposite.

    Just as troubling: Approval would have frightening consequences for Houston because the petition was wrongly written.

    Proposition B would trigger a firefighter pay hike of at least 25 percent, costing the city $98 million each year. On top of that, firefighters would get an extra raise next year if police officers get one.

    Because the city has hit a revenue cap imposed by the voters in 2004, we would have to cut other spending to pay for the salary increase.

    The cuts would mean layoffs of nearly 1,000 municipal employees — including police officers and firefighters — and cutbacks to vital city services. This would be bad for our city and unfair to everyone.

    “Pay parity” may have been the goal, but because of the serious mistakes made in drafting this measure, unequal pay is really what we are voting on in November.

    If Proposition B passes, firefighters will receive the same equipment stipend as police officers. Yet police officers are required to buy their equipment, including guns and ammunition, while firefighters are not.

    Firefighters would receive extra pay for earning college degrees. Yet police officers are required to earn degrees to be promoted to lieutenant and higher ranks. Firefighters are not.

    Firefighters would still receive lucrative special retirement benefits given to them in the historic pension reform that voters approved overwhelmingly last year. Yet because Proposition B fails to equalize retirement pay among police officers and firefighters, firefighters will get much more than police.

    Already, firefighters can swap days off with each other, allowing some to be away from their jobs for weeks, if not an entire month. Police officers do not have these scheduling privileges. When a firefighter is unable to work due to illness or another cause, another firefighter is activated and paid overtime to cover the shift. Not so at HPD.

    These are examples of the serious flaws in Proposition B, all of which would lead to an unequal system that pays firefighters substantially more than police officers.

    Also, nothing in the referendum would fund the continuation of the much-needed replacement of firefighting vehicles, or fire station modernization or health and safety program improvements.

    Keep in mind that more than 80 percent of fire department costs go to providing emergency medical services rather than putting out fires. What’s needed is a restructuring of the department to meet these demands, which Proposition B does not do.

    If Proposition B passes, delivering on the firefighter salary hike could mean laying off police officers, firefighters and municipal employees, cutting hours at community centers, swimming pools and libraries, reducing parks maintenance, delaying municipal court cases and permitting, interrupting garbage service and other cuts.

    Another scenario shifts more of the layoffs to the fire department. Salaries and other costs for first responders and other public safety employees make up 57 percent of the city’s entire annual budget, making layoffs inevitable if the city is forced to increase firefighter pay.

    You won’t find the looming fiscal crisis mentioned in the ballot language because the law says it has to be based on the petition wording. Nevertheless, the situation is patently clear.

    Do firefighters deserve a raise? Absolutely. The previous mayor offered a 4 percent increase. It was rejected. I have offered a 9.5 percent raise over three years. That offer was rejected but remains on the table.

    I have negotiated successfully with city workers and police officers on pensions and pay raises. I know the city cannot afford a 25 percent raise for any employee group. No matter what the outcome of this measure, I will continue to make sure that our city public servants will do their best to keep our city safe with the resources at hand.

    I also urge every Houstonian to join me in voting against Proposition B. Standing in agreement with me is an unprecedented coalition of Republicans, Democrats and nonpartisan voters, business and labor leaders, community groups and public safety leaders. They share my concern that the proposition would create an unaffordable mandate requiring cutbacks to vital public services.

    After Nov. 6, let’s go back to the drawing board and collaborate on a solution that is fair to firefighters, police officers and all Houstonians.​
     
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  11. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    Why should we pay for this socialist program?

    (sarcasm intended).

    DD
     
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  12. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    And here is the argument for the Yes vote.

    https://www.houstonchronicle.com/op...on-firefighters-the-13232552.php?t=0d805cc0b9

    Vote for Prop. B to give Houston firefighters the same pay as police officers [Opinion]
    By Patrick M. Lancton Sep. 16, 2018 Updated: Sep. 21, 2018 12:34 p.m.

    For Houston firefighters, the last decade has been difficult as we watched our pay dramatically erode. As the city of Houston found ways to increase pay for police officers by 30 percent since 2011, our pay rose by only three percent in that time. One Houston firefighter was even featured on a poster for federally supported Section 8 housing.

    By voting “yes” for Proposition B in the November election, voters can help take the politics out of public safety in Houston. Firefighters have asked the city for competitive pay and better working conditions for several years. This followed our giving the city major concessions after the economy collapsed in 2008. City promises of better pay when the economy improved were not kept.

    Instead, city politicians refuse to equally value the service and sacrifices of Houston first responders. Now, too many Houston-trained firefighters are leaving for other departments around the nation, including suburban departments that pay almost twice the starting salary as Houston.

    Some suggest fire and police jobs are different and should not be linked by pay. In fact, fire and police are paid equally on a rank-by-rank basis throughout the United States — including in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago and Dallas. The five branches of the military also have equal-pay structures for hundreds of jobs. A navy chief petty officer, for example, is paid the same as an army staff sergeant. And in Houston, the pay of City Council members is linked with that of local judges. What nobody mentions locally anymore is that police and firefighters had pay parity for many years here — at the request of police.

    The city of Houston’s so-called offers of firefighter pay raises in recent years are mostly political smoke and mirrors. The proposed “raises” offers came with major workplace concessions, thousands of dollars of increased health insurance premiums per firefighter, and continuing threats of firefighters layoffs and station closures. In other words, the city expected us to fund our own pay raises.

    Some ask how firefighter raises should be funded. Since Houston has a cap on property taxes, voting “YES” for Prop. B would not raise taxes. The Houston Fire Department generates more than $100 million annually in business permits, fees and other services. Simply moving that revenue to the fire department budget, instead of raking it into the general fund, would fund the pay raise. Another consideration is that not one cent of the voter-approved Prop. H “public safety” fund created in 2006 has gone to the fire department budget. With strong city revenues, the fund can generate up to $90 million per year. Since the fire department budget has repeatedly been cut in the past decade, the city’s expenditures from this fund deserve further scrutiny.

    In June, a scientific survey was taken of Houston residents. More than 75 percent of the surveyed citizens supported compensating our fire and police professionals equally. They recognized that the requirements and risks of the two jobs are similar, and they viewed the issue as urgent. The same was true of the 60,000 Houston voters that signed petitions — in record time, just over a week — to put the pay raise on the ballot.

    If the city had certified the signatures on time, in accordance with the law, this election would have been held last year. Instead, some city politicians chose to punish firefighters for seeking voter help. It actually took an order from a state district judge to compel the city to obey the law and certify the petitions and hold the election.

    Politics aside, we appreciate the support of the more 60,000 Houston voters who signed petitions in support of us. We also remain grateful that fire and EMS were once again the top-rated service provided by the city of Houston. Through it all, we continue to strive to maintain the trust of the communities we serve. With that in mind, we respectfully ask Houston voters to approve a hard-earned firefighter pay raise.

    Lancton is president of the Houston Professional Fire Fighters Association.
     
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  13. leroy

    leroy Contributing Member

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    You understand they respond to more than just fires, right? They're first responders, just like the police. They don't respond to criminal activity but they are responding to the accidents and other incidents all over the city. Being a fire fighter is much more than just fires.

    I'm not a resident of the city so I don't have all the information. I'm not sure what the right vote is. I understand what both sides are saying. I might lean a little more towards the firefighters. Using the "we MIGHT have to cut X and Y if this is passed" is a tired argument that almost never seems to come to fruition.
     
  14. CometsWin

    CometsWin Breaker Breaker One Nine

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    Some ask how firefighter raises should be funded. Since Houston has a cap on property taxes, voting “YES” for Prop. B would not raise taxes. The Houston Fire Department generates more than $100 million annually in business permits, fees and other services. Simply moving that revenue to the fire department budget, instead of raking it into the general fund, would fund the pay raise.


    This part made me laugh. If we just take away from A and give it to B, problem solved! Heh

    Seems the answer to the problem is to eliminate the cap while simultaneously streamlining the rules and sop's for both departments so that they're more in line with each other, that way the pay and the benefits match up. Next...
     
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  15. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    I addressed that in a subsequent post. That being said i alao see firefighters shopping for groceries (for the fire house) on the clock.

    I don't understand why firefighters dont have normal shifts, maybe its the nature of the job.

    I also wonder if Houston needs more firefighters do to the industrial nature of the city.

    All that being said i think the whole instituion eventually needs to be reformed.]
     
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  16. leroy

    leroy Contributing Member

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    To have them work normal shifts would require a lot of hiring. You have to have a certain amount on the ready 24 hours a day. So then you now have to staff 3 shifts 7 days a week.
     
  17. nickb492

    nickb492 Contributing Member

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    I'm curious reformed in what way?Also you said they get paid overtime which is not true.
     
  18. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    You're right about overtime. That being said i dont know why i harped on it because regardless their wages are steady. 48 hours salary or hourly.
    I don't have a problem with overall pay.

    Reform is a bit of a strong word. I just think we have too many firefighters


    That being said police officers do make hourly pay. Maybe their overtime accounts for a lot of the. They may just work more hours
     
  19. nickb492

    nickb492 Contributing Member

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    Police work 40 hours while fire works 46-47 per week.

    And having less firefighters for the 4th largest city in the US with the 3rd largest fire department in the US doesn't seem that out of place. The also cover the entirety of emergency EMS for the city of Houston. When you see and Ambulance, they are firefighters and vice versa with a fire truck. Everyone is either a EMT or Paramedic.

    I do belive they should phase all firefighters as paramedics but firefighters right now are fighting for a better wage, there is no way the city wants to pay for them being paramedics.
     
  20. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    Are you sure about HPD and overtime? Im not confusing it with side jobs

    Maybe all fire departments need to be reduced. We live in an ever increasingly safer world. The Chicago fire isn't happening again
     

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