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The Overwhelming Black Issue

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by pgabriel, Aug 6, 2020.

  1. JumpMan

    JumpMan Contributing Member
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    What is a large portion? Cause apparently another large portion of Asians come here with nothing and require government assistance. I bet some do come over as you say, but the ones who don't are given a leg up by those here. Again, they support each other. And again, no matter in what conditions they arrive, they inevitably find a way because of their strong culture.

    Actually, this reminds me of the owners of a hole-in-the-wall Vietnamese restaurant I used to go to. The owners, a young Vietnamese couple, could cook, and relatives here helped them open up their restaurant. It doesn't take much of an education or any wealth to run a business if you know the business and someone helps you open it up. Heck, they couldn't even speak English all that well, but they made it anyway.

    This so-called selection filter doesn't seem to work very well as it allows people from a variety of backgrounds through. From what I have learned in this discussion, the Hmong and Somali came here and couldn't support themselves, but eventually made it. What do those two people have in common? A strong culture. Again, a strong culture will always find a way. A weak or nonexistent culture will find a way to mess everything up.

    White nationalists probably wish Asians were still struggling, building railroads for pennies, and sleeping on top of each other in Chinatowns. Asians know this and stick to each other. They don't need the white nationalists or any other white person to do anything for them. This is probably why most of them couldn't care less about American politics.

    Thousands of years of human history show us that culture is all that matters. Every decision you have made is a direct result of the culture you grew up in. In your case, though, your own culture is repulsive and you do everything that goes against it. Actually, it's strange that someone who grew up in one of the strongest cultures on earth and so influenced by it will think so little of culture.

    Not lecture. All I'm doing is sharing a perspective. I haven't said Black culture is bad, I have said that it's weak or that it doesn't really exist.

    Yes, exactly. Centuries worth of evidence shows all of us that it isn't fair to Black people. Why? Because we naturally show preference to our own. Even if we love everyone you will always show preference to your own. Police officers, lawyers, judges, wardens, and the like are mostly white so it is no wonder that the outcomes of the justice system prove preference to whites.

    More Black police officers, lawyers, and judges. I would also extend this to more Black teachers, counselors, and principles in grade school.

    Does this mean broken? No, but they probably win more cases when they are defending one of their own.

    It is harder. But it isn't impossible.

    You want all schools to be equal. That isn't going to happen. And it shouldn't. People don't live their lives doing what's right and working hard to one day provide as best they could for their families just so they could send their children to the same school someone who grew up screwing up and hardly working or hardly earning sends their children. It doesn't work that way.

    If I'm not mistaken, you drive a nice car, no? I have a memory for random stuff of random people. That's what I remember from some thread a while back. But even if not, what if you work hard, make good money, and go out to buy a car only to find out that there is only one type of car and the cost is dependent on your income? You and a broke person will drive the same car and both you and that broke person took the same financial hit to drive it. Wouldn't that be a b****?

    Besides, most schools have the necessary essentials. What makes a school poor or underperforming or whatever is the people that populate it. Sometimes it is poor teachers and administrators, but most of the time it's poor students who don't want to learn in the first place.

    How would they know if the applicant doesn't tell on himself?

    You're just like Max Kellerman. You diss James Harden just like him, you agree with his political views, and you think you are too smart to be disagreed with. Wish I could talk to you like Stephen A talks to Kellerman when he tries to play that condescending nonsense.
     
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  2. davidio840

    davidio840 Contributing Member

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    Sheesh. There’s so much wrong in this post. You try your best to project some ignorant ideology as facts. You should seriously rethink how you view people and even more so, culture in general.
     
  3. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    Again I think you're way to simplifying things. As stated most Asians came here through a filter. It's not easy to get to this country, you need to be either already be successful, have a skill that is valuable, be highly motivated and be lucky. As such most Asians who are here fit one or more of those categories. When you talk about small businesses you would be surprised how many people running small stores, restaurants, motels or driving Uber have advanced degrees. Even for groups like the Hmong the ones who got here were very lucky to escape war and refugee camps. They Hmong are struggling though because they don't have the same educational background as other Asians. Things are getting better but it's not as though because of Asian culture they suddenly found success. In fact from what I've heard from some Hmong there are aspects of their culture that hold them back.

    As far as why black neighborhoods continue to struggle yes there are historical reasons. There are historical reasons why Asians started businesses in black neighborhoods. It has to do with again the Asians who got here and started those businesses were already motivated and educated. They bought businesses in depressed neighborhoods because that was where they could afford businesses or in some cases those were they only places that would sell to them. A good question though is why aren't blacks buying those businesses or staying there? I can't fully answer that question but the flight of black wealth out of traditional black neighborhoods is a problem.

    That said you talk about success as though it is a set of Ikea instructions. If that was the case then we wouldn't have very little poverty at all. You yourself have argued that things like lack of fathers and other things contribute to poverty. Do you know why that is a problem in black communities? You're pointing to a historical issue yet treating it as though it's just something that happened without considering how it got there. Further as I stated the the expectations on black children are different than the expectations on Asians. If you're expected to be a success there will be opportunities given to you to make that possible. If you're expected to be a failure chances are you will be treated as such.

    You seem to understand that there are factors beyond just personal agency that affect the success and failures of different races. For example you say my friend get's stopped out of envy or admiration? I'm an architect and I drive as nice of a car as him and I don't get stopped out of envy. You recognize that criminal justice is a factor, you recognize that broken homes are a factor. Those are all historical issues that are beyond just personal agency.
     
    #143 rocketsjudoka, Aug 9, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
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  4. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    It's not just being educated. Many Asian immigrants that come here own property and land back home and use their equity to start businesses here. I don't know where people got the idea that Asians come here with nothing. Some do but those are people from the lotto system which accounts for about 50,000 total immigrants a year and the refugee system which probably brings in around 20,000 a year. Those numbers are for all over the world not just Asian countries. The rest come here through some merit based program or chain migration which usually just means immediate family members such as parents, spouses and children.
     
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  5. JumpMan

    JumpMan Contributing Member
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    Do you believe culture has anything to do with all of this? If you don't, I would say you are wrong, but that is the disconnect we are having.

    What makes Asians important in this discussion is not just the success of the immigrants, but the success of the American born Asians. Like I have said before, being successful in their home countries, developing a skill there, and being highly motivated are all characteristics of people from a strong culture. Once here, the land of opportunity and wealth, those characteristics will allow you to continue to succeed. If not immediately, eventually, and those are characteristics that are passed on to children.

    But why didn't Black people kick the Asians out of their neighborhoods? Not in a hateful way, but in a, hey, excuse me, but you aren't here to help us so could you please go, type of way. I'm sure Asians would kick Black people out of their neighborhoods if they tried to open businesses in them or at the very least they wouldn't patronize them. Why enrich people who will take your money out of the community? For me, this is because of a lack of culture. Without culture, you won't believe in ownership, in community, in each other, in yourself. Why don't they stay there and start their own businesses? Same reason, IMO. pgabriel is right in that Black people have to be humble about where they start, but they should also have an eye towards ownership and reliance on self and each other.

    Succeeding in this country is simple like Ikea instructions, but it ain't easy. You have to follow the simple instructions carefully, sometimes you're missing parts, sometimes you mess up and you will have to start all over. Oh well. As far as poverty, Dave Chapelle grew up "poor," but his father never allowed him to believe that he was poor. He told him, we ain't poor, we're BROKE! Chapelle didn't even go to his sixth-grade dance because his father didn't have $2 to give him. In that way, "poor" and "poverty" are mindsets, with a culture you will always be in a sense rich.

    That story resonated deeply with me because when I was really young, my family had to share apartments with as many or more families than rooms. We still struggled as I grew older and the family grew, but my father never allowed us to believe we were poor. That thought literally never crossed my mind, by the time I was 10 we had our own house, and my 4th-grade education Mexican father had a supervisor position in a chemical disposal company. In addition, most of the families that were sharing those apartments, mostly siblings and first-cousins also succeeded in their own way. Why? Because they all helped each other. My aunt helped my father with the down payment on the house, my father helped my uncle start a landscaping company, and so on and so on. That's the power of culture.

    Lack of fathers is due to lots of things. I am not sure if you are implying this, but the absence of fathers is definitely by design. It was a coordinated removal of the father and now their continued exclusion is also coordinated. This is why I always talk about the father and the man. Once Black men start reclaiming their position in their family and community and bring back culture, things will improve in the Black community. Until then, we will not see any improvement, IMO, we will continue to see destruction.

    Speaking on expectations, who is putting those expectations on the Black children and Asian children? There is society putting expectations on children, but at the end of the day, the stronger force will be the expectations of the parents, especially the father. If your teachers expected the best from you, but you went home to a mom who told you you won't be **** just like your father ain't ****, you probably ain't going to be ****. On the other hand, if society thought you wouldn't be ****, but your parents told you to forgive them fools, to never ever give up or doubt yourself, and that you have everything you need to succeed within you, you will probably succeed.

    I appreciate the discussion, I have actually learned a lot from you. I don't believe there is such a thing as a model minority anymore, for example, but I do believe most Asians are living the right way, and I still admire their culture.
     
  6. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    All your statements are nothing more than platitudes and normative statements. Yes single parents are an issue but how do you solve it? You first have to understand how it happened. "Culture" is a cop out answer that just kicks the can down the road in finding the actual root problems.

    None of your "solutions" are actionable. Saying that Black men need to be better fathers is a useless statement. Trying to solve systemic problems based on socioeconomic factors with normative PSAs is akin to herding cats.

    And Americans born of Asian decent come from those immigrants who were mostly selectively chosen here. That's why they tend to be more successful. Because their parents are usually more successful and that's because their parents were selectively chosen here.

    It's the same reason most Bangladeshi immigrants and citizens in the US are more educated and have higher incomes than the average American citizen. Same thing with Nigerian immigrants or Indian immigrants. How many poor people do those countries have? How many poor people do China have? They don't come here minus some exceptions in terms of refugees or lotto system which is a small part of our immigration. Most of the Asians coming here are in the upper middle class to upper class in their respective countries of origin.

    Again, you are comparing a group of people who have mostly come here through a filter to a population of people whos lineage has 300 years plus of being restricted education and economic opportunities based on their skin color.
     
    #146 fchowd0311, Aug 9, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  7. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    Thanks. I appreciate the discussion too.

    As I said I don't believe this is simple. Yes there are certainly aspects of Asian culture that are helpful to success and the traditional Confucian focus on learning is one but there are still plenty of Asians living in poverty and there are Asian countries with very strong cultures but poverty and corruption are endemic. You keep on bringing up culture but seem to be dancing around why black "culture" might have problems such as an absence of father figures. You say it is by design. Why and who has designed it that way?

    The answer seems pretty obvious to me. Historic racism devastated black families for centuries. It led to black males being incarcerated at rates very disproportional to their population leading to more fatherless families. This idea that racism ended in 1965 we need to remember that is within the lifetime of some of our posters here. Further while outright legal racism might've ended there were and still are racist practices.

    Form example regarding the expectations of an Asian versus and a Black student. For me personally when I was very young I actually wasn't that good of a student but my parents along with teachers kept on pushing me and even into advanced classes. Eventually I did do well but the truth is I resented it. We don't see that happening as much with black students especially poor black students. If a poor black student doesn't do well they are likely not going to be pushed into advanced classes but into remedial classes. That is how expectations shape reality. I think there is certainly something there about lack of fathers but also it takes teachers and administrators too to also have expectations of students. If they expectation is that a student not doing well isn't going to amount to much they want make that push.
     
    #147 rocketsjudoka, Aug 10, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
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  8. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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  9. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    Asian cultures are mostly community centric so those immigrants had the benefit of being able to heavily rely on the existing communities. For example, Korean families at a Korean Church might agree to put 5 grand into a hat along w/ 5 other families so that one family that year or two would be able to secure a larger biz loan for a restaurant or laundromat. The amount of patience it takes to wait in line to be the last family after giving away thousands for nothing, or ditch the group if you were first and were still struggling is pretty amazing and definitely unique. Shame and ostracization is that important.

    This means there were always new foreign inflows in both capital and experienced manpower that you don't get in black communities or the Dirty South. White Rural America is falling victim to the same problem as the OP.

    That isn't to say Asians didn't cheat one another like anyone else. Then there are the downright rotten cases of human trafficking and slavery that still goes on to to this day, which is probably a different and even more sobering topic... Anyway, it was just understood that in this country, you're mostly on your own outside of your community. College educated but no English? What was your grade for scrubbing toilets? They could cry about racism and mean ol "Trumpers" who got away even more with cheating and bullying you, but every gatekeeper is the same, what's different is how they made your entry difficult.

    That's how I would describe the most motivated Asian immigrants in the 70s. I think that's what America was to them. It wasn't about the land of freedom or whatever we learned in school. It was essentially a second chance and the possibility for you or maybe your kids to live above their means. That meant living and scrimping pennies to the dollar that made day after day, year after year that others would waste or squander out of fear being made fun of by their friends and neighbors. And if they found great compassionate people who looked beyond their situation and welcomed them, that's the day they made the US their country.

    I'm sure there are many things they could find in common with industrial minded Mexican and Latin American immigrants who found a way to make a living.

    As for their children, I think part of the reason for their success is guilt from what their parents went through. The other part is overbearing pressure to succeed to the point where upon attaining success, they didn't know what their next steps in life were. Which is why popular culture have mocked Asian Americans as weirdos and socially awkward for over 50 years. Now we're allowed to be degenerates and show personality in recent media (nahh still a kind weird that I can't put a pin on), but if you want something to waste time and think about, why is that pattern in pop culture and media representation reverse for Asian Americans compared to Black Americans? Did it ever make sense in a school yard setting that blacks and whites knew how to live, even if numbers showed they really didn't know how to live? Seems like we've come full circle on agency and accountability.

    That's the endless lure of having your cake and eating it too...It's what makes living in today's culture so great and exceptional. Just complain about what other groups have and your group doesn't but do nothing about it personally to bust out of the rut. So what are the talking heads are selling this time?
     
    #149 Invisible Fan, Aug 11, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
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  10. TheresTheDagger

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    The question seems to be what leads people to make better decisions vs those that make poor decisions?

    I refuse to speak for all, but in my case, it's VALUES and the shame breaking those values would have on me. Values are taught, but are also inherent as well. We all know when we do something we shouldn't...especially the first time. It's that "inner voice" that provokes a feeling (however brief) of guilt. Those values in my case were backed up by the environment I was raised in and in turn THAT environment was completely controlled by my folks who were as poor/humble as any people I've ever come across of ANY race. In other words, my folks refused to let tough circumstances they lived in to affect their teaching of values to us and we in turn would be ashamed to let our folks down.
     
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  11. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    Kamala Harris is overwhelming.
    Kamala Harris is black.
    Kamala Harris is an issue.

    @Os Trigonum did I do it right?
     
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  12. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    not sure what you are attempting here.
     
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  13. davidio840

    davidio840 Contributing Member

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    I’d say a lame attempt at trying to call you racist, scared or something. You know, the same thing they condone Trump for doing.. LoL
     
  14. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    Swing batter.
     
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  15. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    Mission accomplished.
     
  16. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    clever!
     
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  17. davidio840

    davidio840 Contributing Member

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    :rolleyes:
     
  18. Wattafan

    Wattafan Member

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    Great post!
     
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  19. amaru

    amaru Member

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    Negro you have lost your damn mind. I’ve NEVER EVER been jealous of white people (or any other racial/ethnic group). Keep your inferiority complex to yourself. Don’t project your “victim mentality” on the rest of us. Where you see defeat and inferiority, I see tenacity and strength!
     
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  20. ThatBoyNick

    ThatBoyNick Member

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    This post is terrible.

    But if you quote from a link it becomes intellectually stimulating.
     
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