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The Dehumanizing Condescension of White Fragility

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by jiggyfly, Jul 22, 2020.

  1. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/dehumanizing-condescension-white-fragility/614146/

    I must admit that I had not gotten around to actually reading Robin DiAngelo’s White Fragility until recently. But it was time to jump in. DiAngelo is an education professor and—most prominently today—a diversity consultant who argues that whites in America must face the racist bias implanted in them by a racist society. Their resistance to acknowledging this, she maintains, constitutes a “white fragility” that they must overcome in order for meaningful progress on both interpersonal and societal racism to happen.



    White Fragility was published in 2018 but jumped to the top of the New York Times best-seller list amid the protests following the death of George Floyd and the ensuing national reckoning about racism. DiAngelo has convinced university administrators, corporate human-resources offices, and no small part of the reading public that white Americans must embark on a self-critical project of looking inward to examine and work against racist biases that many have barely known they had.

    I am not convinced. Rather, I have learned that one of America’s favorite advice books of the moment is actually a racist tract. Despite the sincere intentions of its author, the book diminishes Black people in the name of dignifying us. This is unintentional, of course, like the racism DiAngelo sees in all whites. Still, the book is pernicious because of the authority that its author has been granted over the way innocent readers think.

    more at link

    The author makes some great points, I have to go nand read the book myself but this video was fascinating its 11 minutes but worth it.

    https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/debating-white-fragility-in-america-88118341868
     
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  2. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    Expect to see more commercials with mixed race couples.
     
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  3. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    You noticed that as well.
     
  4. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    It's ridiculous.
     
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  5. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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  6. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    You don't like those ethnically ambiguous couples?
     
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  7. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  8. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    This is not the most egregious example, some of the couples would never be together.

    Blacker the berry.
     
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  9. ThatBoyNick

    ThatBoyNick Member

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    [​IMG]

    What's up you think a BWC ginger can't get some ebony queen love?
     
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  10. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    My favorite is the tourism ad for England that was recently cancelled.

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. mdrowe00

    mdrowe00 Member

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    ...kind of already showed up, this "white fragility" business...

    ...remember that lady a few days ago, who got into the fight with those people about whatever-the-heck-it-was-about...and got out of her car and pulled a gun on the people?

    ...didn't she do an interview or something, where her lawyers are advising her behavior was caused by a feeling of "ethnic intimidation"?
    ...(which is actually sort of a thing, legally, and has been for a while)...

    ...shades of the infamous "affluenza" case, there...;)

    ...and you're right...the double-standard is there, and has been there...and may go on being there for a while...

    ...I don't know if there's a Negro, living or dead, who could walk into a church and kill a dozen people (after spending an hour or so with them), and not have it blamed on his lack-of-parenting, or just violent n!gger-genes, for example...;)

     
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  12. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    I'm all for cancelling "Bob Hearts Abishola"
     
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  13. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    I read the whole op/ed but admit I haven't read White Fragility. I've heard a lot about it including people quoting it so I think I got the gist of it but probably should read it at some point.

    Some comments on the piece. First criticizing an influential best selling book of social commentary for the author for "Rather, she sees herself as the bearer of an exalted wisdom that these objectors fail to perceive, blinded by their inner racism. DiAngelo is less a coach than a proselytizer." Does McWhorter think a book about social commentary who's author is full of self-doubt and spends the book vacillating on their main point would sell or even be published? While DiAngelo might just be too full of herself this hardly seems like damning criticism.

    Besides that though I think McWhorter is off base on a few other points. When he writes "Later in the book, DiAngelo insinuates that, when white women cry upon being called racists, Black people are reminded of white women crying as they lied about being raped by Black men eons ago. But how would she know? Where is the evidence for this presumptuous claim?" I presume he is aware of Emmit Till and false claims of rape or any sort of sexual indiscretion made by a black man towards a white woman led to a lot of lynching. The spark for the destruction of Black Wall Street was supposed that a black man had made a pass a white woman. This isn't some eons old thing. Just look at Amy Cooper who made a fake call to 911 that he was being menaced by a black man in Central Park.

    He takes her to task for consider how White people view themselves and that it shifts.
    "DiAngelo’s depiction of white psychology shape-shifts according to what her dogma requires. On the one hand, she argues in Chapter 1 that white people do not see themselves in racial terms; therefore, they must be taught by experts like her of their whiteness. But for individuals who harbor so little sense of themselves as a group, the white people whom DiAngelo describes are oddly tribalist when it suits her narrative. “White solidarity,” she writes in Chapter 4, “requires both silence about anything that exposes the advantages of the white population and tacit agreement to remain racially united in the protection of white supremacy.” But if these people don’t even know whiteness is a category, just what are they now suddenly defending?"
    Yes that is an inconsistent view but it is very true. Just consider how often even here on Clutchfans D&D we keep on hearing people criticizing things like Affirmative Action or other efforts to combat historical or entrenched racism by saying "I don't see color" and "everyone should be treated the same." the argument being that addressing a historical wrong amounts to present day racism and it's really those who just want to pretend that the past has no bearing on the present who are the nonracist. Further as a non white first generation this is something I encounter a lot. The idea that things like speaking English, eating with forks, celebrating Christmas and etc.. are colorblind norms that immigrants have to adopt if they want to assimilate into the US. The truth is those are narrow ethnic cultural norms. On the other side you will hear many of the same people who say "I don't see color" argue about why there can't be a "White History Month" or claim cultural oppression as a "War on Christmas.. DiAngelo is absolutely right that here.

    I also find it very troubling that McWhorter downplays the effects of racism and he falls into a common category of minorities who have done well and/or grew up in a background where they do well and then considering there situation to be applicable to the larger state of all minorities. He writes:
    "In my life, racism has affected me now and then at the margins, in very occasional social ways, but has had no effect on my access to societal resources; if anything, it has made them more available to me than they would have been otherwise. Nor should anyone dismiss me as a rara avis. Being middle class, upwardly mobile, and Black has been quite common during my existence since the mid-1960s, and to deny this is to assert that affirmative action for Black people did not work."
    This is exactly the attitude that Rav Arora, the writer of the NYPOST op/ed on the Fallacy of White Privilege had. In both cases their central argument was that we see people of color, (Asians) and/or myself doing well, so therefore racism or privilege from racism doesn't exist. Well good for them. that doesn't mean that there aren't still many other minorities who aren't doing well or the struggle that it takes for families to overcome the past. For example George Floyd wasn't responsible for growing up in a broken home in the Third Ward. George Floyd's ancestors were forced to live in places like the Third Ward and because it's hard to build up long term wealth by the time he was born the couldn't afford to live anywhere else. To become a success or even middle class out of the Third Ward is a lot harder than if you grew up in West U.

    I do agree with McWhorter though too and think he makes some important criticisms. The most important is the idea that essentially white people cannot comment on racism. He writes, "its result is to silence people. Whites aren’t even allowed to say, “I don’t feel safe.” Only Black people can say that. If you are white, you are solely to listen as DiAngelo tars you as morally stained."
    I've recently been seeing on social media stuff that tells white people "how to be good allies." and how to behave at protests around George FLoyd and the George Floyd memorial. It basically amounts to be seen and not heard. Unless the police show up then it's your job to use your Whiteness to form a human shield around the black people. I agree that is ridiculous and reductivist but there is a more dangerous aspect to this and one that I agree with McWhorter is infantilizing. During the George Floyd protests when I watched my neighborhood get looted and burned I strongly criticized those actions. IN response I heard a lot of quoting of "Riot is the language of the disposed" without understand the whole context of that quote including that in that same speech MLK said that he continued to be for non-violence and he believed violence would be self-defeating and lead to more tragedy. I will repeat what I said then. Demanding silence and acceptance in the face of destruction and theft of property, especially ones that will ultimately harm economically the very people you claim to be support, is dangerously shortsighted but it is the soft discrimination of low expectations. Yes we can recognize there is legitimate anger over long standing racism but claiming that black people can express themselves however they damn well please and if they want to burn this b**** down we should just let them is a dangerous rationalization. Rather than solving racism it will end up exacerbating it by furthering distrust between the races but as in the case of many neighborhoods make it harder to rise economically.
     
  14. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    a very thoughtful response, thanks for writing it
     
  15. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    We agree on this completely, I did not know that he downplayed the roll of racism, the 1st I heard of this is yesterday on Morning Joe.

    They did not go into any of Fallacy of white privilege just the part of white people should be seen and not heard and told what they can and cannot say.

    I just think this is great to have discussions on something like this, its productive.
     
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  16. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    This is a interesting topic, have not read the book but it seems like blacksplaining coming from a white person.
     
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  17. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    It's definitely an important discussion. Besides COVID-19 it is probably the most important discussion that needs to be had right now.

    Like so much else though nuance and complexity are getting lost. My understanding of White Fragility is that it is basically absolutist with the idea that Whites have to feel guilty and the best way they can help is admitting guilt and then being quiet. In the Autobiography of Malcolm X he recounts a story of a white women coming to speak with him after one of his speeches and when she asked what she could do to help he said, "Nothing" and dismissed her. He later realized that was a mistake to just dismiss an honest effort and it was better to find ways to work with white people.

    At the same time we have to recognize that racism existed, still does and we're still dealing with the effects. There are a lot of people like McWhorter who by his own description is an upwardly mobile black man, say that since things are going well for him and some other minorities mans that racism doesn't really matter anymore.
     
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  18. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    I really need to read more on McWhorter because he did not come off like that when I saw him and its sad because he makes good points but if he is pushing that narrative it's easy to dismiss everything else.
     
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  19. mdrowe00

    mdrowe00 Member

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    ...uh-huh.

    That's certainly one way of looking at it.

    I've always personally figured that any type of racial reconciliation in this country (between black and white people) was always going to have to be spearheaded by black people.

    It's got nothing to do with who's "right" or who's "wrong", so to speak, to me...not really. Again, the "right" thing to say and to do is always the right thing to say and to do. Waiting for an opportunity to say or do the right thing...and especially waiting until that is most advantageous to you...kind of forfeits your place in line, to me.

    People generally tend to care a lot more about what they're out in front of than what they get themselves behind. Image is everything, you see.

    Power and control is never ceded easily or willingly (the power in these racial instances often meaning, who gets to decide what is "racist" and what isn't, for example). And the person who wants the power to control the truth is somebody who wants to lie unhindered, because there is no such power.

    Alot of people try to say the blanket statements to cover things up. You don't have to make the bed if you don't notice that the sheets are a mess, in a manner of speaking.

    One of the reasons why it's important, to me, for white people to listen to what black people try to say, is that there's really not a lot of reason for a lot of communal trust. You can cite the odd anecdotal example of white/black cooperation, certainly...and alot of us have done what we thought we could in our own interpersonal relationships. As difficult as it may be to hear for a lot of white people...racial reconciliation isn't a one-off proposition.

    Black people, by necessity, have had to trust white people to honor the laws that for a very long time had no binding recourse for black people. And far too many times, white people have set aside, ignored or worked against any equity or well-being for Negroes for whatever reasons made the most sense or the most money.

    And even so, there are enough Negroes that are a part of the machinery of this country, that we cannot be set aside from "blame" or "responsibility" for much of our own problems.

    For the record: "white people" are not the only reason why there are so many problems among poor (or even "middle-class") black people.
    And also for that same record: They are the reason for an awful lot of it.

    It's hard for me to "follow" people who can't tell themselves the truth, personally. And white people have routinely not told each other the truth about a great many things...we can leave the Negroes out right here for a minute.

    They lie to themselves about their history (which, in fairness, is THEIR history...and they can believe whatever they want to believe about it)...

    ...rich white people lie to poor white people...poor white people lie to poorer white people...and have been since the very beginning...

    ...(somebody put up a cute little chart showing that about as well as I could)...

    ...they can't tell each other the truth about their own civil war (which alot of them insist wasn't fought over slavery, and the money it made for white southern plantation owners and white northern textile company owners)...

    ...hell, most of the time, they can't even tell when one of their own is "racist"...how did the "Tea Party" (which rose out of a need to "limit government" after only half a Negro bumbled into the Presidency) become so overrun with white supremacists so easily?

    ...not to mention them being able to go from posing as "Dixiecrats" to "Conservatives" with nary a glance askew...

    ...if "racism is racism", I mean?

    They seem to have sharp eyes when Negroes don't dress appropriately for important press briefings...or if Negroes are trying to cook up some plan to roll the Army out to their houses to take their guns away from them...and heaven forbid a Negro not having his birth papers or personal identification in order...

    Lot of this is going to boil down to a bit of role-reversal, to me.

    Don't get me wrong: all of that "white fragility" is a bit overstated, in my estimation. This is still America...so it's still white people's house party.

    Might have a few more than the usual number of foreign or colored house guests...but if they don't know that they're lucky to have been invited in, that's their problem.

    So yes, Negroes are going to have to accept some things: we're still in the position of cleaning up after white people. We're going to have to do things "right" even at cost to us (all the crime stats and unemployment and welfare queens say that Negroes are doing their part to further the American dream of justice and wealth as well as ever)...

    ...but we are going to have some say as to what gets kept in the house, and what gets thrown out into the trash heap, now.

    So some things don't ever really change...;)
     
    #19 mdrowe00, Jul 23, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
  20. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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