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Nevada Debate Thread

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by baller4life315, Feb 19, 2020.

  1. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    I’m watching the game, but I have a minute. How did Bernie get “burned?” He got 3,000,000 fewer votes than Hillary. Where was the “burn?” Votes still count, right? The “burn” is a fantasy.
     
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  2. foh

    foh Member

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    Ted Cruz openly told president's attorneys that none of the republican senators believed that the Zelensky call wasn't about quid pro quo. That's all I said about the conviction in my quote. I said it was a moral conviction by the senators not a procedural conviction. Please read better.

    I'm sorry Clinton had a extramarital affair and tried to lie about it due to arrogance (as opposed to corrupt intent to undermine fair elections). Trump couldn't go one day without lying. And tries to undermine our elections every day too. As far as I'm concerned impeachment is a public trial and the oath to constitution by the president is always in place especially during the times of impeachment and Trump should be convicted for lying under oath.

    What did dems do? Be specific and have documented undeniable proof please. Your integrity is something you should deal with by looking in the mirror.
     
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  3. AleksandarN

    AleksandarN Member

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    Why should the unions be compensated because of m4all. Unions can renegotiate when their contracts are up. Next go around they ask for more money since the companies will be saving billions in premiums. Hell no for government giving unions money.
     
  4. AleksandarN

    AleksandarN Member

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    You mean lies like “Obamacare death panels”. Yeah and once the lies we’re uncovered, many of people that were against Obamacare are now for it. Excellent point glad you brought it up.

    [​IMG]
     
    #204 AleksandarN, Feb 20, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
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  5. AleksandarN

    AleksandarN Member

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    How would you not benefit from m4all? Do you have insurance now? Do you pay for it? Do you have to pay for premiums and deductibles?
     
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  6. Major

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    Lots of people can get hurt from M4A - or at least in their opinions, which is really all that matters. For example, good health care plans have access to wider networks. A place like MD Anderson doesn't work with every health care plan, meaning their pool of potential patients is limited. If you have access to MD Anderson now, and suddenly everyone does, what happens? Same number of doctors. Lots less resources since we're saving $450B per year according to Bernie by paying much less to the hospitals. Do you think your quality of care will be the same? Do you think you'll still have the same level of access to your doctor?

    Poll after poll shows that a majority of people don't want to lose their private health care plans, regardless of whether other people think that's reasonable. Maybe they are all idiots, but they still need to be convinced otherwise, and so far, no one has done that. Plenty of retired people pay for private insurance now for the same reasons, despite access to free Medicare.
     
  7. AleksandarN

    AleksandarN Member

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    Huh? M4all is a method for payment meaning a single payer system. There would be no need for plans as everything would be covered. Regardless what side of the country you would be on. You wouldn’t have to worry about what network you are in. No deductibles and no chance that the insurance companies deny you. You are not losing any choices as a the matter of fact you would have more choices. This idea “of losing your plan” is an agenda that is being pushed by the healthcare industry lobbyists in Washington. All lies
     
    #207 AleksandarN, Feb 20, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
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  8. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    I'm going to remind people that Clinton was punished by the USSC and the Arkansas Bar over the Lewinsky scandal.
     
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  9. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    Keep in mind too that near the end of the 2016 primaries it was Sanders who was saying that the candidate with the highest pledged delegate total shouldn't get the nomination. Also he was looking for the super delegates to bail him out.

    This idea that Sanders got cheated out of the last election isn't historically accurate. The DNC wasn't nice to him and did do some stuff like letting Clinton see debate questions ahead of the debate but otherwise than that there was very little calls of voter fraud. Also given how Sanders dominated caucus states, which we see are very unreliable, Sanders benefited more in 2016 from the rules of the primary than Clinton did.
     
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  10. Major

    Major Member

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    You're missing the entire point. We have an unequal health care system right now - meaning some people have access to better doctors than others. When everyone has access to those doctors, the people that currently have the better access suffer. Tell me what you think happens at MD Anderson when the pool of potential patients doubles or triples. Do you think the people currently with access to it will get the same services? Same wait times? Same access? If so, do new people have no access? You can't have it both ways.

    Separately, you can't cut $350B out of the system and have everything be the same. Someone is going to lose out - hospitals, doctors, etc are all going to get paid less, and as a result, there's going to be some kind of reduction in services. The only way around that is using fantasy math where you're paying less for everything but nothing else changes.

    The whole "insurance company denies you" thing is the same hogwash as death panels too. It's not like Medicare approves every treatment either. There still has to be someone deciding whether a particular treatment is required - otherwise, everyone will just get every unnecessary test and procedure and costs will skyrocket. It's nonsensical platitudes like this that make M4A supporters just seem either clueless as to the details of how our medical system works or deceptive to promote their agenda.
     
  11. foh

    foh Member

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    It's prerogative of the party to try and keep its values and let the people who enter it disingenuously (ie with values that run opposite or not insync of the party lin) either to adjust their views or to face some unfavorable treatment. Social democrats can try to make their own party (and hand the presidency to gop - as they effectively did.) If anything GOP should've censured Trumpers and not placed us into the constitutional crisis where president decides that it's ok to collude w/ foreign countries, misinform vigorously, and undermine integrity DOJ/DNI/congress/ethics/campaign laws. Trumpers accusing DNC of being crooked by creating barriers for social democrats is hypocrisy in the utmost. Considering that they call Sanders a communist, they should THANK DNC for supposedly making things difficult for Bernie. They just want to complain about their life being worse than immigrants/blacks/minorities instead of doing something proactive to make their own life better while their guy is in power (like easier access to healthcare and education), if I was to trust your facebook Trumper friend's and my dad's concerns. Despite being immigrants themselves not too long ago at that.

    Trumpocrats - a party of whiners and losers that separate families, break promises to allies and collude with foreigners to stay in power - making Americans a total joke for Autocrats around the world.. Not to mention being global warming deniers but buying Greenland just in case.. I f*cking WISH I was exaggerating here.
     
  12. Amiga

    Amiga I get vaunted sacred revelations from social media
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    I'm not so sure about that. We have ACA and we are now talking about either extending it or replacing it. If the public option flop, I think we can definitely replace it. If single payer flop, that's harder but as I said before, if once the pain is high enough, demand will force change. I would put changing from single payer to something else is likely as hard as changing from what we have today to single payer - it's hard, but not impossible.



    I hear your concerns. My largest concern is leaving room for innovation and for continuing improving higher quality of care. I think that can be done with the right incentive structure, but it's certainly a high risk area that likely need tuning over time. I'm not as concern about the complexity and cost - I think government run SSC and Medicare (but not VA) are good examples that the US government can do this job and do it much cheaper.

    Health care is very special. I don't like to the word consumer here. None of us chooses to "consume" care for our health. It's often not an optional thing and many time we have no ability to choose the provider, the place or time to "consume" care. If we are able to shop around, chooses to have care or not, chooses who to provide the care, the place and time to have it, then we do have real choices and there would then be real competition to compete for our choices. That's just not the case for health care.

    Most countries have already gone to full government or partial government controlled health care and have been relatively successful. Are there any nation in the world that provide "regulation" free (or close to that) health care and are successful at it?
     
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  13. Major

    Major Member

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    Keep in mind Medicare currently works *because* of private insurance. Doctors and hospitals limit their share of Medicare patients because it pays rates that aren't sustainable. They make money off private insurance patients and only can cover variable costs with Medicare patients - they only work as a sort of a supplemental source of income. It's not as simple as "Medicare can do it cheaper". In the current setup, 100% Medicare patients would bankrupt most doctors and hospitals.
     
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  14. AleksandarN

    AleksandarN Member

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    https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/healthcare/346652-too-many-americans-with-insurance-are-being-denied-coverage?amp

    Speaking of 350B out of the system. Administration costs alone were 450B

    Myth of people denied insurance. 1 in 4 is no hogwash. On top of that 70 percent of those that denied involved serious illness.

     
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  15. foh

    foh Member

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    Some of the health care needs are actually not an utter necessity to complete (ie it can wait) and some is preventative. I'd be happy if the government implemented a tiered health care. Innovation, quality and choice through free market competition is the hallmark of american industries and healthcare should be a part of that exceptionalism in areas where that makes sense.
    And if we are hell bent on socializing health industry, then at least put a good proven manager in place. This is where Bloomberg's crickets ad from the debate night comes to mind.
     
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  16. Amiga

    Amiga I get vaunted sacred revelations from social media
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    Because they forgo billions in benefits and wages to have amazing health plans. M4A means those plans are replaced by the gov plans. They want to recoup some of what they gave up. Warren's plan allow employers to reduce their contribution to m4a for amount that go back to employee's benefits or wages. I don't know what Bernie's plan does, but he also have some process in place for this.
     
  17. AleksandarN

    AleksandarN Member

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    Again how long is the average union contract? Can unions not negotiate after their contracts are up?
     
  18. Amiga

    Amiga I get vaunted sacred revelations from social media
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    Yes, and it's crazy how they do this in the industry. Private ins (and Americans) have to pay more to basically subsidize for medicare to some extend. Medicare and private ins also have to pay more to subsidize for the poor and those that end up not paying. I don't know to what extend and I don't know if anyone know. So, yes, your point is valid but also keep in mind that hospitals and doctors are also losing billions for uninsured and under-insured patients who can't paid their bills. Under single payer, they would be paid. It's not as simple as 100% medicare would bankrupt most dr and hospitals. It's complex and we really don't know and it's hard to know because the system is so opaque.
     
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  19. Amiga

    Amiga I get vaunted sacred revelations from social media
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    They certainly can and will. Bernie and Warren is giving them an upper hand to do so.
     
  20. AleksandarN

    AleksandarN Member

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    Government should not give money for unions as compensation as the employees will get more benefits with m4all in the long run. I see no need for governments to give money to unions period.
     

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