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[Trump] An invitation for Evangelicals to Debate the Merits of Supporting Trump

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Rox>Mavs, Dec 22, 2019.

  1. T_Man

    T_Man Contributing Member

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    Rox>Mav has hit on some great points about this....

    There are people out there that are using the bible for their own monetary wants....

    We have discussions about this all the time at my church sunday school...

    T_Man
     
    mdrowe00 and Rox>Mavs like this.
  2. mdrowe00

    mdrowe00 Member

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    You formulate your thoughts fine, Rox>Mavs.

    And if you’re deferring to me for anything that calls itself sensible, then you’ve got a lot more problems than worrying about some rogue Christians:):D.

    I’ll tell you honestly, Rox>Mavs, that for a long time myself, I felt much the same angst as you’re feeling now about your faith. But again, I don’t feel that angst had anything to do with what I knew, didn’t know, accepted or rejected about Christianity.

    It was about who else was involved.

    Some background…

    …I mention often that my mother is a devout Christian. I haven’t told her directly that I don’t share her fervor for it, but I suspect that she has always known. There are many people in my family who in one form or another are Christian, and they run along that “spectrum” you suggest.

    I have learned a bit of diplomacy about how I choose to handle or participate in discussions about Christianity with them. I never initiate any religious conversations with anyone (which is essentially proselytizing). I try never to summarily dismiss or reject whatever premise or conclusion or assertion they may or may not make. I don’t bring an outside perspective into an internal disagreement (relating to “Christian” doctrine). But I do make a point of making sure that their lines of thinking (whenever I am asked about something, and that’s a lot more often than I would prefer) are congruous with the scriptures they routinely quote, or the context they ignore surrounding said quote from time to time, in order to get to that “conclusion”, or provide that answer, that “wins” the argument.

    I don’t think it’s about creating or starting a conflict. That conflict is there because, again, the purposes are at odds from the outset. Relationships color the ability to discern or judge a situation. Our personal stakes are at once our most vital assets and our most crippling weaknesses, when determining a course of action that we want to say is “just” or “good” or “right”…or in this case, aligned with scripture.

    The nature or “purpose” of “Christian” love (or any type of “love” if one prefers) is of self-sacrifice.

    Couple of personal instances come to mind, while I’m on this.

    I couldn’t have been more than six or seven years old when I have my earliest memory of going to a Baptist church. My mother took my younger brother and me to church every Sunday that she could until we were both 12 years old. She was a big believer in an “age of accountability” mantra—Jesus was reportedly 12 years old when he “knew” what his purpose was and what he was supposed to do…Luke 2:41-52…so I’ve never held to this notion that people don’t “know” what they’re doing, or they’re being misled, as such, in regards to their beliefs (guess some of that stuff managed to stick)…

    Long story short (or shorter, in my case)…we were on state assistance at that time. All the money she had on her was those old-style food stamps. She put a few of them in the offering plate. The pastor stopped the proceedings when the plate was brought up to him and railed about how this was unacceptable, and about how “God” wasn’t a “poor” god and about how they couldn’t use these stamps for anything, and nobody that loved “God” would bring such a disgraceful offering to him, and on and on…

    …and my mother stands up and rails on him and everybody in there (in much more colorful language than I’ll use) about what a bunch of stuck-up pompous and ignorant Negroes all of them were (and they WERE, believe me), and how they didn’t know the first thing about “God” and what he had and who he loved…

    …and she grabbed my hand (so I had to grab my little brother’s) and stormed us right out of there.

    And I get prouder of that moment every single time I think about it. And I think about it a lot.

    That church is in Houston, by the way. Won’t out it by saying its name here, but its name rhymes with Count Ebron. And anyway, that was a long time ago…what good’s it do anybody to hold grudges, hm?;)

    Also not too long ago at work, I had a couple of people (white people, I have to mention, unfortunately…because stereotypes are stereotypes) who felt the need to talk to me because they were, in their words, “curious” about me.

    Wanted to know about me. I always seemed to have a smile on my face. Kept to myself. Couldn’t find anybody who had a bad word to say about me. Just wanted me to sit down and talk to them and get to know me.

    They couldn’t have been more obvious, if they’d had on Jim and Tammy Fae Bakker party masks, what they were up to. And I’ll stay away from the also obvious “magical Negro” undercurrent of such things I routinely have to navigate when encountering people like this…who need some “happy” or “docile” Negro to make their points for them…just so we stay on track…

    …after about an hour or so of actually nice conversation (with the obligatory mention of the president doing God’s work and how prophecies were being fulfilled…one in particular I actually hadn’t heard before, about some goof saying that he predicted the Donald’s election 10 years ago, and that he would be the last American president so that the end times could begin…yeesh…)…

    ...they had either figured out I knew a little too much about things I wasn’t “supposed” to know, or I wasn’t that “magical Negro” that a Burgess Owens was for those Mormons up on Capital Hill recently, that could add some “color” to their beliefs.

    …I daresay that in the weeks after, I couldn’t tell you if either of those two people (who I see every day) have even bothered with the courtesy of a "good morning" more than once.

    Good riddance to bad rubbish.

    As long as you’re taking advice from a non-believer like me, Rox>Mavs…

    …(and even in my glibness, I am concerned for you in this, believe me)…

    …I’d say (biblically, of course) that you should “…come ye out from among them, and be ye separate…”

    And don’t spend your time like Habakkuk, holed up in your tower, lamenting the evil you see going on around you, wondering why “God” isn’t doing something about it…

    …maybe with that mustard-seed-sized faith that “God” says is the only requirement (just an ounce of individual initiative)…

    …you might produce the harvest you wish to reap.

    Might.

    No guarantees.

    But what you’re going through now can’t possibly be better than the alternative, right?
     
    #202 mdrowe00, Jan 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  3. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    So the prayer breakfast was interesting.
    https://stream.org/harvard-professor-arthur-brooks-powerful-speech-about-division/

    Brooks(A political conservative) spoke about Jesus' teachings to love your enemy. Trump got up and started talking about how Brooks might not agree with him but Trump wasn't disagreeing with Brooks. He was disagreeing with Jesus.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...oing_what_they_know_is_wrong.html?jwsource=cl

    The reaction was interesting.
    https://time.com/5779538/trump-national-prayer-breakfast-politics/
     
  4. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    I'm not going to call anyone a bad Christian because I'm not a Christian. That said I don't remember vindictiveness as being a big part of Christianity while I do recall a lot about "turning the other cheek."
     
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  5. Buck Turgidson

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    How much faith did Noah have in those 2 termites?
     
  6. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    He was probably more worried about the wood peckers and beavers.
     
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  7. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    It was very strange. Brooks talked specifically about loving your enemy and how to do it with your political enemies. That is the message of Jesus and much of the Bible even in the old Testament.

    Then Trump got up and talked about how he disagrees with the idea and proceeded to attack his enemies.

    It was pretty obvious that he has no clue about Jesus or the Bible.
     
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  8. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

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    Trumps behavior in weaponizing faith for political power grabs and to attack others faith when their faith doesn’t align with his political power is exactly what the Bible was referencing in “taking the lords name in vain”.

    question for @Rox>Mavs

    Given this, does that mean that those who wear their faith on their sleeve who sanction this manipulation and weaponization of religion for power are also taking the Lords name in vain?
     
  9. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    Not to worry, it appears that most Evangelicals have not read The Bible either.
     
  10. RayRay10

    RayRay10 Houstonian

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    More at the link in the tweet
     
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