Also, if Westbrook is a declining star what is CP3? Since this thread is about CP3 vs Westbrook after all.
Personally I think CP3 being old, washed and couldn't get by his man, is overblown to be honest with you. Yes, he is old and needs more rest than a younger guy. If availability is equal to being better, than Westbrook might be much better. But skillwise undersized CP3 is better in terms of what he had to go through. To put it on record, I am not really overwhelmed by both of them, I would have gone with someone like Ben Simmons.
I think...you may be a little too greedy here. When you said that Westbrook isn't Durant or Harden...I mean yeah, he's not as good as those guys. We don't need that, having another all-star player though would be nice? Harden has rarely played with another actual all-star player. CP3 right now is a guy that can't always get by his man, he was shut down by bigs last year...BOGUT! Of all people, actually kept CP3 in front of him. Westbrook can still get past bigs, can still get past most guys and drive almost at will. Westbrook can out rebound bigs. westbrook can destroy teams in transition still as we saw last night. Hell, I'm guessing Westbrook by the end of the year is going to finish with another all-star appearance AND All-NBA appearance. He is not a top 5 player, not a top 10 player, but he's still a star player. He's still someone that can carry a team when Harden doesn't have it and he's still a super dynamic player. True, it may be one or 2 more years of this...but we saw what CP3 was with us, Rockets had no reason to believe that CP3 was actually going to improve with his age.
The hate for Russ is real. Like, to me, it's one thing saying "I don't think this is going to work out for the Rockets." But another thing acting like he's some scrub player that's actually been secretly making his teams worse this entire time. The hyperbole against Westbrook is a bit too much right now. I get that he's not the best player in the NBA or close to it but he's still a dynamic star player. I think he showed that last night and it's not the only game he's done that and people have given up on him so fast.
Interestingly Bill Simmons had a podcast recently where he suggested they change the salary matching rule for trades and lower it to 50%.
I might be greedy, but with the assets or non assets that this team has..... there is no future beyond Harden. You got to get your superior, premium talent from somewhere. If you miss out on a championship this year, there will be several years you can count on a younger player. I know it's a CP3 thread but we wouldn't have gone all the way with both of them. Not in the long run.
Either way, even if we landed Butler, or if we got AD somehow, these are the last few years of Harden's prime. Harden's prime does not coincide with the development of a young player that will take 3-4 years to become that. Unless you get lucky and get a Doncic like player. I'd rather Harden spend his prime with another player the same age as him whose prime will end at around the same time as Harden then a player who is clearly a shadow of what he was. BTW, I think Harden's prime will last a lot longer than most players prime since he doesn't rely on athleticism at all. I could see Harden doing what he does at 36 years, I really can. So I don't think this is necessarily the last shot... But I do think it is the best shot considering what we had to work with.
last night? this was the second night in a row where he just took over in the clutch!! cp3 cant do that... only a small number of players can do that whatever he doesnt even need to be better than cp3 ... harden proved he can do it with cp3 and without cp3, he surely can win it all with or without westi if the refs will call game fair
The last “few years” was referring to Melo. Just so we are clear that I don’t make my judgment off 1 stat. That I have watched Westbrook his whole career. He was once really good. Eye test and all the stats I’m about to layout here confirm that he was once really really good .In the same way eye test and all those same stats are confirming that he’s on a clear downward trajectory. That this year is so beyond bad compared to his own and just about anyone’s standards. This does not mean that he is doomed to continue to play as bad as he has so far for the rest of this season. It only illustrates a continuation of his downward trajectory and proof of just how bad his first 21 games have been. PER 16/17 : 30.6 (lead the league and won MVP) 17/18 : 24.7 18/19 : 21.1 19/20 : 16.7(slightly above league average) Winshares per 48 16/17 : .224 (very good) 17/18 : .166 18/19 : .124 19/20 : .059(very bad) TS% 16/17 : .554(not very good, but his career high and adequate for his usage and other production) 17/18 : .524 18/19 : .501 19/20 : .483(very bad) ESPNs RPM 16/17 : 6.27(very good) 17/18 : 5.16 18/19 : 2.51 19/20 : numbers haven’t been released yet, but I’m gonna go out on a limb and say it will be worse than last year NBA.com/stats Player impact estimate 16/17 : 23.0(really good) 17/18 : 18.6 18/19 : 16.4 19/20 : 11.9 Bballref box plus minus 16/17 : 15.6 (really good, league leader) 17/18 : 8.2 18/19 : 6.5 19/20 : 0.3 Bballref value over replacement 16/17 : 12.4 (very good, league leader) 17/18 : 7.5 18/19 : 5.6 19/20 : 0.4 I could go on but the pattern is clear. I don’t put all my judgment into 1 particular stat and I am an NBA junkie who watches way too much basketball. I have seen his decline with my own eyes. The numbers show a player who was once great, is clearly declining and having so far one of his worst seasons ever.
I'll say this, he's never going to get close to those numbers again and these numbers, these career best numbers, all coincide who he's playing with for a reason. Those 3 years will always be his best years, the teams were built solely around him, he ran those teams, he was the leader of those teams. I think Russ is a hard player to really get integrated on a team. Even young Russ they had to bench Harden just so that they could make the most of their styles of play and now we're taking that experiment to the extreme except this team is built around Harden, not Russ. When you look at these numbers before it became officially his team, they are the same...so did he get better suddenly or was it just that he played a bigger role on a team designed around his needs? There was a play yesterday where Russ was running the fastbreak and you can see he just ran, he left the rest of the team behind him, slowed down and then basically shouts to everyone to run. He got impatient and tired to fit a hard pass into Clint who was trailing and it should have been a TO but didn't result in one. This play is a microcosm of what's going on. Mclemore is the only guy that gets it right now. I think guys are going to continue to get it that if you run with Russ you'll get easy buckets and we'll mesh to him better and he'll play better. Yes, these are career worst numbers for him...but the situation for him is entirely different. It's like Harden said after the game, he hasn't experienced this before, this is new to him. But this brings the final question into play here, with what you said...Would you rather have CP3 right now or Westbrook. That's what this is all about. Let's not talk about hypotheticals of "Maybe we could have held out for a better option..." yeah, or maybe not. Dallas broke up a championship team thinking there were better options out there...let's keep it to Westbrook v CP3 because that's what we're really talking about here. Westbrook v CP3...who, right now, has the higher ceiling? Do you think Russ is completely washed up? If you don't, then doesn't it reason that he has the higher ceiling on this team than CP3 who is just old at this point?
I'd wager that Paul George playing at an MVP level last season vs no George this year might be the primary reason for that . Two above average players (SGA and Gallo) don't equal a superstar. And then trading Grant one of their better defenders for nothing. So losing their best defender and best player, plus another top defender, yea, makes sense, nothing special there. OKC is 17th in Ortg this season despite no George and Westbrook, same as last season, but dropped from 4th in Drtg to 15th.
I was wrong about how much PG was injured, I thought it was for more time. However, wouldn't PG having his best season playing with WB tell you something?
I doubt that the refs will ever call it fair, many do not like the Rockets. It is what it is, you have to find a way to win despite the refs......hard truth.
This is what westi does.. cp3 cant do this.... i am afraid not even harden can do this in the clutch...
