Enough of the Sham Democracy Talk

Just because a gov. is democratically elected, doesn't mean they are automatically our allies. Hamas as an organization still calls for the destruction of Israel and uses suicide bombers against civilians. I don't see a problem to use some of our influence to pressure Hamas to change its militant stands.

 

Why promote democarcy so hard when the only thing you are interested in is a government that can be your friend? It is much easier to get a friendly dictator to run those countries.

 

can we use some of our international pressure to stop israel from co-opting more land via the wall?

oh wait. too late. and we dont really give a damn what israel does.

 

Because democracy is the better way in the long run. Of course not all democratic governments agree with each other. Each country use its influence to get things done, that's how diplomacy works.

 

If you are going to promote democracy, you'd better be able to live with the results.

 

i would hardly call the overthrow of democratically elected governments "diplomacy".

unfortunately there is a long list of democratically elected governments that the u.s. has taken an active role in overthrowing, only to set up violent and oppressive dictatorships who might be more willing to "do buisness" w/ u.s. interests.

the whole "spreading democracy" reasoning is crap. its all about money. you can have a democratically elected government, but should they be socialist leaning or start talking about redistribution of land the c.i.a. comes in and takes them right out. this is exactly what we did in guatemala.

 

An Imperial power has got to do what it's got to do. The leftists coming to power in Latin America are directly challenging our hegemony in the Western Hemisphere and adopting socialist policies, which means they're a threat. The Middle Easterners are electing Islamists every chance they get, that's problematic for us, because those Islamists are ultra-nationalists and aren't sell-outs like most Arab leaders are.

US foreign policy has been the same for over a century, not much has changed...

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=aRQb1pt6wRtM&refer=top_world_news

Hamas Should Be Recognized as Legitimate, Putin Says

Feb. 9 (Bloomberg) -- The international community should recognize the Palestinians' choice of Hamas to lead their next government, Russian President Vladimir Putin said today as he offered to meet with the Islamic group, which opposes Israel.

``We need to recognize that Hamas has come to power as a result of a legitimate election, and we need to respect the will of the Palestinian people,'' Putin said at a press conference in Madrid following a meeting with Spain's prime minister, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero. ``To burn bridges would be the simplest action, but it lacks perspective.''

Russia, one of four international powers in the ``Quartet'' promoting peace in the Middle East, will invite Hamas leaders to Moscow for talks, Putin said. Hamas pioneered using suicide bombers against Israel, and the U.S. and European Union classify the movement as a terrorist organization.

The Palestinian Authority hasn't been able to stop attacks on Israelis by armed groups. Hamas, which has carried out dozens of suicide attacks on Israeli targets, won last month's Palestinian legislative elections and may form the next government. Last month the Quartet, made up of the U.S., EU, United Nations and Russia, said Hamas officials must form a government that accepts Israel's existence or risk having outside aid cut off.

`Clarification' Sought

The U.S. ambassador in Moscow has contacted the Russian foreign ministry to learn more about the planned Hamas visit, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said today in Washington.

``We have sought some clarification from the Russians as to what exactly their intentions are, what their plans are,'' he said.

McCormack added that because Russia is one of the Quartet members, the U.S. expects it to affirm the group's demands that Hamas give up armed resistance and recognize Israel's right to exist.

``If there are meetings that take place, we would expect that that message would be strong and clear to Hamas,'' McCormack said.

Hamas may observe a long-term truce with Israel in exchange for an Israeli withdrawal from the entire West Bank, the organization's exiled political leader, Khaled Mashaal, said yesterday. Israel has always ruled out a full-scale pullback from the territory it captured from Jordan in 1967.

Hamas must abandon the use of violence, Zapatero said. ``All the international community wants -- and demands -- that its policies exclude violence,'' the Spanish leader said.

 

Bush is an absolute moron for not knowing how the Palenstinians would vote, and now everyone once again will have to pay the price for his administration's arrogance and total ignorance of facts.

 

http://www.wral.com/apworldnews/6911611/detail.html

Israel Hits Russia's Invitation To Hamas

JERUSALEM -- An Israeli Cabinet minister on Friday accused Russian President Vladimir Putin of "stabbing Israel in the back" for inviting Hamas militants to Moscow following their decisive victory in Palestinian elections.

The invitation _ Russia's latest attempt to assert itself in Mideast diplomacy _ represented a break with the U.S. and European position of not dealing with Hamas until it renounces violence and recognizes Israel's right to exist. Putin further angered Israel on Thursday by saying he did not consider Hamas, which has killed hundreds of Israelis in suicide attacks, to be a terrorist group.

In Washington, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice urged Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov on Friday to send a clear, strong message in any meetings with Hamas officials that the militant group must stop terror attacks on Israel.

Despite the controversy, France expressed hope the Russian overture could help lead Hamas toward acceptance of a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But Foreign Ministry spokesman Denis Simonneau reiterated that the Palestinian militant group must renounce violence and recognize Israel.

In an interview with The Associated Press, Israeli Cabinet Minister Meir Sheetrit of the centrist Kadima Party called Putin's remarks an "international scandal" that amounted to "stabbing Israel in the back." His comments were echoed by other senior Israeli politicians.

Russia is a member of the so-called Quartet of Mideast peace negotiators, along with the U.S., the European Union and the United Nations. The Quartet is the main sponsor of the "road map" peace plan, which calls on the Palestinians to disarm militant groups like Hamas as a step toward creating an independent state.

Sheetrit said the Russian invitation tainted Moscow's attempts at being a Mideast mediator.

"Russia should be removed from any negotiations in the Middle East," said Sheetrit, who is a close ally of acting Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, the front-runner in Israeli elections scheduled for March.

Israel has a complex history with Russia. The former Soviet Union supported Israel in its early years, but relations soon deteriorated as Israel increasingly allied itself with the United States.

Moscow cut ties with Israel at the time of the 1967 Middle East War, and backed Israel's Arab enemies for decades. The Soviets also barred Jews from leaving the country, jailing many who sought to emigrate to Israel.

As the Soviet Union was collapsing in the early 1990s, the two nations restored ties, and relations warmed as Moscow loosened its emigration restrictions. More than a million Russian speakers now live in Israel.

In recent years, Israel has quietly moved to upgrade anti-terror cooperation with Moscow in the wake of attacks by Muslim separatists in the breakaway republic of Chechnya.

Putin, "I believe, would feel very bad if Israel would invite the Chechen organizations of terror into Israel and give them legitimacy," Sheetrit said.

Israeli leaders across the political spectrum voiced similar views.

Former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, leader of the hard-line Likud Party, said he sent a letter to Putin asking him to cancel the invitation. "I think such a thing will in general give legitimacy to international terror and, specifically, the rise of Islamic terror," Netanyahu said on Channel 2 TV.

Ismail Haniyeh, a Hamas leader in the Gaza Strip, welcomed the Russian initiative. "We think countries in power can decide for themselves what kinds of positions and policies they can take," Haniyeh said Friday.

Haniyeh said Hamas would accept the invitation, though a date for a visit hasn't been set.

Hamas has so far rejected calls to moderate its violent ideology, despite threats from Europe and Washington that tens of millions of dollars of vital aid could be in jeopardy.

Russian Defense Minister Igor Ivanov said Friday his country was not happy with Hamas' ideology, but the group was elected in a democratic poll. After winning a majority of seats in last month's parliamentary vote, Hamas is poised to form a new Palestinian government in the coming weeks.

"Hamas is in power, this is a fact," Ivanov told reporters at a meeting of NATO defense ministers in Taormina, Sicily. "Sometime in the future, many leading states will start supporting Hamas and have some contacts."

 

I think it is quite a leap to go from a refusal of aid (which would amount to a sponsorship of terrorism in this case) to the overthrow of a government. Just because we don't pay for someone's government does not me we are overthrowing it. If that were the case, then we are currently attempting to overthrow every government that we do not currently send aid to, which is probably quite a few.

 

I am actually in agreement with you here along with the edit.

Hamas is in a position to take a step away from their terrorist operations and become a full fledged politcal party. I am all for that happening. But the first move is up to them. Believe me I am no fan of Israel's govt. or their treatment of the Palestinians either.

It is just that before we assume Hamas has thrown off all resemblence of terrorism I would like to see them move in that direction first.

 

Agreed, maybe the US aid (the threat to cut off aid) will help them move along towards a legit politcal party a little faster.

 

Whether we like it or not, Palestine has a democratically elected government. I don't agree with Hamas and I don't agree with a lot of their policy. But we made a deal and now we're breaking it. Hope we're not cutting off our nose despite our face.

------------------
US asks Palestinians to return aid

By Sue Pleming
1 hour, 16 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States has asked the Palestinian Authority to return $50 million in U.S. aid because Washington does not want a Hamas-led government to have the funds, the State Department said on Friday.

The money was demanded as part of a full review of all U.S. aid for the Palestinians that began soon after the militant group Hamas' surprise victory in elections last month. A Hamas-led parliament was set to be sworn in on Saturday but it could take several weeks for a Cabinet to be formed.

State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said the caretaker government of President Mahmoud Abbas agreed to return the money, given last year for infrastructure projects after Israel's withdrawal from Gaza and parts of the West Bank.

"In the interests of seeing that these funds not potentially make their way into the coffers of a future Palestinian government (made up of Hamas) ... we have asked for it to be returned and the Palestinian Authority has agreed," McCormack told reporters.

A Palestinian official confirmed Washington had asked for $50 million in aid to be returned. "The Palestinian Authority promised to comply," the official said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060217/ts_nm/mideast_aid_usa_dc

 

We didn't make a deal to fund a terrorist group. Claiming we should continue to fund Hamas because we agreed to fund the Palestinian Authority is silly. Almost as silly as claiming you can't both be a proponent of democracy AND refuse to financially bankroll a particular democratically elected regime. I am a proponent of democracy. That doesn't mean if country X elects PFNTAMCOTW (the Party for Nuclear Terrorism And Mushroom Clouding Of The West) that I am somehow bound to support that regime. That's just absurd.

And I'm not really sure how many democratic governments the US has 'actively participated in overthrowing,' even if one were to grant Guatemala and Chile (really there was tacit consent - a far cry from active participation). On the other hand, the US HAS actively participated in replacing non-democratic regimes with democratic regimes in Germany, Japan, France, Italy, Russia and all the 'stans, Ukraine, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, Afghanistan, Iraq, the Baltic States, and the list really does go on.

 

file:///D:/Users/Rick/Desktop/200.gif

 

http://www.gifbin.com/984241

 

Some liberals find a way to disagree with democracy. They hate the USA that much.

I've seen it all now.