Jeff Van Gundy on SR610

ONCE Adelman got a hold of Hayes?

Really? Like he was back in 2007/2008 (scoring average went down from 9.2 to 5.4 per 36 minutes, with significnat decrease in FG% and FT%) or in 2008/2009 (scoring average further went down to to 3.8 per 36 minutes, with futher decrease in FG% all the way down to 37% and FT% also down to 37%)?

Hayes was averaging more than 9 pts per 36 minutes with 56%+ FG and 60%+ FT under JVG.

In 2009/2010, Chuck's numbers recovered a bit, but not even near the JVG years-levels (7.3 per 36 min, 49% FG, 54% FT).

This year, Hayes worked hard in the offseason, and finally put up great numbers.

Adelman effect for sure. It shows up once you hit your 4th year with him, I guess.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hayesch01.html

 

Oh come on now.

Under JVG the opposing team would completely ignore Hayes on offense. McGrady would hit him for back door cut every now and again but it was extremely rare. I remember cringing anytime Hayes was anywhere near the ball.

You are honestly going to sit here and tell me that you would rather have JVG Hayes than Adelman Hayes?

He also got pushed down a peg with the emergence of Scola/Landry.

 

Exactly. I mean, look at how all those players JVG was sticking on the end of the Rockets bench are tearing up the league now that he is not there to keep them down. Spanoulis, Nachbar, Novak, Lucas III, Ford, Braggs, Wilks, Barret, Knight, Bogans, Davis, Frahm, Graham, and Lampe; you could just get all of those guys together on a team and you would be a lock for the #1 seed.

JVG's youth hating ways even went back to his days in New York. There he failed to develop such luminaries as: Chris Jent, Walter McCarty, John Wallace, Ben Davis, Etdrick Bohannon, Demarco Johnson, Lavor Post, and just to give extra combo Rockets/youth hate Mirsad Turckan.

He broke with his form for some reason, giving extensive minutes to Yao Ming, Luthor Head, Chuck Hayes, Marcus Camby, Chris Childs, and Charlie Ward, but such a clear pattern of ignoring talented young players as demonstrated above simply cannot be ignored just because he allowed a few lights to shine.

 

Let me ask you a question.

Do you honestly think that Landry or Budinger would of gotten ANY playing time under JVG? Two guys who ended up pretty good but play no defense?

 

Carl, I like you as a poster, but you are the one who is wrong and must stop now.

Using things like "reason" and "logic" to combat this type of idiocy is utterly useless. The sooner you realize this the sooner you can come to grips with what we must do. The only way to counteract this... this terrorism on sanity... is utter humiliation and verbal abuse. We must strike and strike with vigor at the source of the madness. We must bring such shame upon them that they feel the fear in their blackened hearts the next time anything even resembling this level of stupidity craws near their fingertips as it attempts to slither onto the keyboard.

CLUTCHFANS THIS IS A CALL TO ARMS NOT A JOKE

CODE RED MUTHER***** STUPID

CODE RED

 

It's a faulty exercise to compare JVG with Adelman because you're really comparing JVG/CD vs Adelman/Morey. The latter wins by a mile, but Dawson and Rudy were horrible at bringing in talent. While Morey seemingly nails just about every pick/trade he makes. So is Adelman making Morey look good? Or did Dawson make JVG look bad? We can't really tell.

Honestly, the only part of JVG's tenure in Houston you can truly compare fairly to is the Rudy T era. JVG took over, made everyone play defense, and the offense looked like pure crap. We didn't win any extra games, but we were playing 85-80 basketball as opposed to 95-90 basketball under Rudy. Defensive players flourished under him and offensie-minded players became nerfed. The Rockets improved a year later, but that can be attributed to T-Mac more than JVG.

To me, JVG doesn't "solve" anything. Mainly because we already have a good coach. If we had a crappy coach, then it's one thing. But JVG won't magically make this team win more games. Sure, our defense would improve, but our #5 offense would take a huge dip at the same time.

 

You overrate JVG's negative effect on the offense. Yao was a more effective offensive player under JVG. Also, with an elite T-mac + viable 3 point shooting (Sura, Wesley, Barry, Padgette), the offense was virtually unstoppable in 2004-05 and they were scoring 100+ with regularity.

And in the end, JVG's improved defense had a bigger overall impact than Adelman's improved offense (more regular season wins and more playoff appearances). Overall, in the league, elite defensive teams win more... while elite offensive teams are a dime/dozen and don't necessarily win more games.

The bottom line is that the Rockets are close to being virtually insifnificant (both in this city, and the nation) under the Adelman regime... I don't think anybody should be faulting change right now.

 

Offense under Rudy's last year: 14th
Offense under JVG's first year: 24th
This was the only time we had similar personnel before and after coaching change.

Well, Yao was healthy under JVG. He was also in his prime in terms of age

Rockets offense under JVG never passed the "league average" mark. They were always below average.

JVG record from best to worst
52 wins(T-Mac and Yao both healthy)
51 wins(T-Mac and Yao both healthy)
45 wins(Francis/Yao duo)
34 wins(Yao/T-Mac played half a season together)

ZERO playoff wins

Adelman record from best to worst
55 wins(Yao got injured and missed the last 30 games or so)
53 wins(T-Mac became a p***y but Yao played)
42 wins(No Yao, No T-Mac)

ONE playoff win

How's JVG's defense winning more again!? In regular and postseason?

And we were significant under JVG era because of
A)Yao Ming bringing us a billion fans
B)T-Mac being a superstar
C)JVG was the coach

If you're saying it was (C), I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

 

yea I understand the love for JVG

he's funny, witty, looks like your drunk uncle and seem like a nice guy

but he is far from a great coach

people need to move on

 

Can't really compare those two teams without looking at the other player besides Tmac and Yao. Like you said the only comparable rosters were Rudy's last year and JVG's first.

With that said it would be a toss up between the two for me. The fact that Adelman is currently the coach makes me want to keep him. But if he left I would be ecstatic with JVG. They both have strengths and weaknesses, and in fact would complement eachother perfectly. Too bad that would never happen.

JVG's strongest attribute was his in-game micromanagement, not necessarily his "defense". As it turns out, micromanagement has the biggest impact on defense.

Meanwhile I'd say that is Adelman's biggest flaw. At times he is either too slow to adjust or fails to do so completely. Although the assistants might be more to blame as that seems to be their area of expertise.

Adelman's biggest strength is his big picture system. He does a very good job of creating and implementing a system and style of play that suites the strengths of his personnel. As it turns out, that has the biggest impact on offense.

In the end, after you factor in all their strengths and weaknesses, the biggest differentiating factor that separated their teams comes down to the personnel they were dealt. JVG lacked offensive players on his teams so he had a defensive team anchored by Yao. Adelman's best team was better than JVG's because it was balanced by both offensive and defensive players. Now that Adelman's team lacks defensive players, his team is all offense.

 

And his defense was much better... and as a result, the team made the playoffs.

He only played 57 and 48 games in JVG's last two years... whereas he played 55 and 77 games in Rick's first two years. He was HEALTHIER during Adelman's first two years, yet he put up worse numbers and was overall less effective. He was more DOMINANT under JVG... who featured his strengths more. Adelman put him in the high post... which mitigated his dominance and cleared lanes for smaller players.

After the 04-05 Rockets "gelled", they were the most unstoppable offense the Rockets have had since the 95 playoffs. The White Boy Power Squad (Barry, Sura, Padgette, Bowen) were far more effective as role players to T-mac/Yao, and had his offense flowing. Note, this is to refute the point that he is incapable of having a good offensive team. If you give him the personel, he can get them to put up points.

First of all, Yao Ming was NOT healthy during the 52 win JVG year (only played 48 games).

Secondly, the principles of JVG's defensive mindset still held true during Adelman's first two seasons.... and noticebly dropped off after that. Yet, while the offense improved, and defense regressed, the team got worse.

Thirdly... who cares about playoff series wins? JVG had two game 7's against quality teams, and lost. Adelman beat an inexperienced Portland team in a 1st round playoff matchup and took the Lakers to a 7th game. The differnece between those two coaching performances is a wash in the grand scheme of things.

We were a better, more consistent team in the JVG era... that's why we were significant. We also played defense, which wins more games in this league than elite offense does.

 

Wow, if only tinman read this utter diss of the greatest coach in Rockets history. I just stopped reading here. No point in discussing Rockets history with someone who doesn't know Rockets history.

I was mainly responding to the weird assertions by Nick, like how JVG's extra defense made us win more than Adelman's offense. So it's not like I'm saying JVG sucks or Adelman's awesome. Just that the results don't really say that JVG was better at anything.

As for strengths and weaknesses, I'd say it's not like you can have the perfect coach. JVG preaches transition defense like nobody's business. That's why the Rockets just put up jumpers and everyone runs back. While Adelman uses backdoor cuts and stuff for his guards, which can lead to opposing transition buckets. There's no right or wrong answer, but it mainly has to do with your personnel. IMO, it's impossible for JVG to have a top offense unless his roster is filled with stars. While under Adelman, it's probably necessary to have that great interior presence to make up for his free-flowing offense.

When Adelman had great defensive players - Portland's big, brawny frontcourt, Chris Webber, Yao/Deke - his defenses have been stellar. While JVG's best seasons came when he had shot creaters like T-Mac and Houston/Spree in NY. In the end, it still comes down to the players. JVG and Adelman can both win championships with the right guys, but neither's going to mold mediocre roster into a contender.

 

I honestly think JVG would have taught them how to play defense, instead of accepting that they couldn't play D. Luther Head wasn't exactly a defensive specialist, but JVG taught him enough D that he can play on the court.

31 year old Ray Allen learned to play good D last season. If he could do it, why couldn't C-bud or Landry?

 

This.

The idea that there are players that just can't play defense is phony. If defense were important to RA, we would player better defense, and we would win 50 games.

 

Please, kid. I've been around here since the start. I am well aware of "Rockets history".

I also don't let homerism dictate my every opinion.

I can also say that in 2003, Rudy was no longer the same coach he had been. He was undergoing treatment for recurrent bladder cancer, and was facing the daunting task of either giving up his ways of life (high stress, smoking, alcohol) or risk losing his bladder and having a permanent debilitating condition (urinary diversion/urostomy).

Thus, JVG was able to get better results vs. a Rudy/Larry Smith coached team. No slight on Rudy's career overall... but at the time, a change was needed.

And if the Rockets continue to spiral within mediocrity, another change will be needed here as well. You can now continue to read the rest of my original post where I refute all your claims that Adelman wiped the floor with JVG, with much lesser talent.

Do you really think this team would be at 0.500 right now if they could play a lick of defense? They would be better. Probably not championship worthy, but still better... and it goes to show you why defense is still the most important aspect of a winning basketball team.

 

Yes, two championships merit a lot of respect for a coach.

 

I mean, I'd be thrilled with either coach. I think we probably look pretty spoiled to the outside fan squabbling about which hall of fame coach we prefer. We'd be lucky to have either.

 

It was Head's combination of shooting, defense, and size for a PG that made him an attractive draft prospect for other teams. Pat Riley supposedly had a keen eye on him in that draft.

 

Yes I do. That was kind of the point of the lists. Players that had a chance to do something in the league got PT from Van Gundy. He relegated trash like V-SPAN to the bench after giving them limited run. Landry almost certainly would have gotten playing time, if for no other reason than the dearth of big men on the roster. Bud would most likely have gotten less PT and this year been largely replaced by Lee. However, unless Budinger improves drastically, he is pretty much garbage. He plays no D and can't seem to shoot very well either. I am not nearly as high on him as some.

Let me ask you a question in return, is there anyone that Van Gundy benched that has turn out to be as good as or better than Landry?

 

I view that more as a paradox.

I think that a players first few years are critical to his long term success and if not wrangled in during that time, then its usually lost. So no, I can't cite very many particular players other than Boki who atleast went on to have a somewhat productive season in NJ and Chuck/Battier who became more well rounded under Adelman than JVG.