CP3 has a better WS, BPM, VORP, PER, and onoff than westbrook

This whole "nerds" nonsense is so annoying. Bunch of Eddie Johnsons running around.

Sports can teach you so much about life and politics.

You wonder how people can defend a politician caught in a scandal and deny all reality? Look at how fans of a team deal with their player/team in a cheating scandal.

You wonder how people can totally reject all facts and science? Look at the "NERDZ!" arguments that go on in sports.

 

Here’s some facts for you

Chris Paul’s relatively crap season last year is better than any of Westbrook’s last 3 by just about any statistical measure.

And the playoffs? Good lord. Comparing the playoff performances and resumes of those 2 players is a joke. There literally isn’t any logical way to argue against this. Chris Paul has been soooooooooo much better even in his older years.

Well unless you want to be illogical and just ignore the stats.

But again I don’t give a crap about Chris Paul here.

This all Westbrook. He’s been bad. For years now. This is not a small sample. He is a losing player. Has been for years.

And it has nothing to do with comparing him to Chris Paul. Compare him to anyone in the league.

Right now Westbrook is at essentially career lows at everything. And it’s all been trending this way for years.

He’s currently a negative 0.2 wins above replacement. Meaning we’re paying 30+ million for a BELOW average players production.

None of this stuff can be argued against.

The facts are available for everyone.

You have absolutely been mind****ed by the allure of the “triple double hustle man”. He plays hard and fills the box score, but it doesn’t make up for the shooting, the defense and the stupidity of his game. All the statistical markers bear this out. The same stats anyone would use to prove how great Harden or any great player has been... Same stats.... show Westbrook to be garbage.

 

"I don't give a **** about their so-called evidence, Bob. I watched his televised speech and I say Nixon passes the eye test."

 

That only measures his performance, though. It doesn't measure his overall effect on the team. Those same irrefutable facts show up playing at a much faster pace, and my non-numbers-based-yet-totally-accurate-visual-assessment says that the team is more aggressive overall this year. For whatever reason,

CP3 played his way through a mostly lazy season last year—and that was the year we were supposed to show that 2017-2018's beautiful run was no fluke. His sleepwalking wasn't on the same level as Dwert's mutiny season, but the stakes were higher and as a fan, I found no way to reconcile it. If Chris Paul wasn't fighting some kind of injury or illness last year, then his performance was unforgivable.

I'll take the guy who gives 100% every minute he's on the court over the one who plays an entire f$#king key season in a funk.

 

But we do have the teams net rating with Westbrook on the floor and on off numbers available as a stat. Which does a pretty good job of showing his effect on the team.

And it shows we’re better with him off the floor. Period

Again this has wandered back to Chris Paul. I am aware of why the trade was made. I am aware of what Paul has been and is this season and it is irrelevant to the facts of how Westbrook has played in recent years and this one specifically.

Westbrook has been REALLY bad. And this is factual.

 

And I would argue that Russ's effect on the team's aggressiveness positively impacts things even when he's NOT on the court. Also, at this point he's still getting used to running a team full of relative strangers when Harden sits. You can see that pretty clearly. His +/- and shooting numbers will improve as he settles in, though his shooting is still his biggest weakness.

 

Pace is shown in numbers, the faster pace, that is a thing that the Rockets completely flipped by getting Westbrook. That is a fact and that does effect the game and how its played as it means you get more shots against defense that isn't set up.

I think the numbers thing is true, sometimes people rely SOLELY on numbers and nothing else and that's a big mistake, even Morey would tell you that, stats go along with what you see, sometimes what you see contradicts the numbers or can't be properly quantified by numbers. Like defense...no one is going to say Kawhi is better defensively than Harden and here are the numbers to show it...you just watch and understand it.

If you say Westbrook is a below replacement level player and the numbers bear that out...would any team seriously bench him and not play him a ton of minutes? No. Why not? They have all the same numbers we do. OKC were just as much into analytics as the Rockets were and yet they built a team around him and it wasn't entirely his fault they never won a championship, in fact, he won them high profile games, last year it wasn't his fault PG13 (Playoff P) built brick houses nightly. Westbrook were on some really great teams in his career, he played a lot of minutes on those teams, I don't give a **** what the numbers say about that, he clearly contributed to winning...and no, he wasn't a better 3 point shooter then, he's never been a better 3 point shooter, always shot for crap behind the line.

I still say that biggest impact is that Westbrook can get his own completely. That's not something Harden has had for much of his career here...other than the first year we got CP3...Dwight was always an elite garbage guy in that he needed the ball right under the rim to score efficiently and CP3 was prime CP3 for a year and father time came knocking.

Westbrook right now can still get his own. Harden can sit out entire games and Westbrook can drop 30. Harden really hasn't had that here.

Also defensively he's not been terrible and don't bring me stats to measure his defense, there's never been a magical stat that measures the defensive value of a player, but the stats that do measure defense, DBPM and such, say he's been alright defensively and it's what I see as well other than the random blow by which tends to happen even to the best of players.

 

You guys just aren't being honest with your selves.

He isn't good.

 

So Porzingis makes the Mavs worse...that's what the numbers say, They are never ever wrong.

 

There are a TON of inaccuracies in this post.... Not to mention the “ I don’t care what the numbers say” line. Classic way to start an argument.

I don’t base anything 100% on stats. I watch Westbrook and see a ****ing train wreck. A physical freak, with the basketball sense of a toddler. The numbers only back that up.

Pace is great. I guess. But our teams offensive efficiency is the worst it’s been in 4 years.... And Harden is having his most efficient high volume season EVER! This doesn’t add up, unless you realize that Westbrook is clearly dragging our efficiency down.

Paul George in last years playoffs with OKC had a .583 TS% on 24 shot attempts. Harden has only ever had 1 playoff year more efficient than that.

Paul George was a +1.7 net rating in last years playoffs. Really the only Thunder player who was a positive. While Westbrook was NEGATIVE 9.7

Westbrook can get his own without Harden?

His point created per isolation possession is bottom 33% in the entire league so far this year. And the teams net rating with Westbrook on and Harden off are negative. He gets points because he inefficiently chucks a ton of shots. We are consistently losing the minutes that Westbrook is playing unless Harden is playing along side him. And the minutes with Harden and no Westbrook are GREAT.

 

High quality post will read again.

 

Did I start the argument that way? Nope. Was that the full context of that statement. Nope.

Calling Westbrook a bad players because of 'numbers' when he's been on winning teams his entire career and playing tons of minutes on those winning teams is wrong. Period. I don't care what numbers you put before me, clearly he contributed to winning, you can't play 35+ minutes on winning teams with his usage and somehow be making your team worse.

Or...guys are missing tons of open shots. Almost everyone on the team is shooting around 300 or below it...open shots too. That tends to bring efficiency down. Basically until the 3 game win streak, everyone outside of Harden and Tucker were shooting horribly. When you factor this in then yes it adds up. Guys start shooting better and we start winning again. They both create a lot of open shots.

You must be talking about a single game, the series he shot poorly, .319 from three and he's a three-point shooter. He'd even tell you this (although he'd blame his shoulder) and many people were mocking him for coming up short because of his 'Playoff P' moniker. How did Westbrook shoot better from three that series than Paul George?

Net rating is nice...but...the only game they won that series was a game dominated by Westbrook while Playoff P was over there still bricking shots. So much good that net rating did the team

A lot of context in net rating that gets missed if you just post the numbers. That stat above that shows it unless we really believe that Mavs are better off not playing Porzingis at all, I'm sure no one actually believes that though.

Who is Westbrook playing with, for example and who is he playing against?

Also, Westbrook isn't an ISO player and I'm not sure his pull up 2s would count statistically as Isolation and his transition buckets definitely are not.

Also, are you using % for the ISO possessins from where? Some websites include every player when it comes to that and it means a player good at that kind of possession gets rated lowly...for example...Russ % on transition points is also 32 but Trey Lyles is 100...

But his ISO stats are not bad, it's just not something he's going to score a lot of points from, he scores more points per game from transition play and pushing the ball.

 

Monumental logical fallacy.

This is just plain wrong.

There is a reason the Thunder underachieved.

 

What's the reason the Clippers underachieved? Championship coach, 3 all-stars...

 

I gotcha man. Westbrook hooked you just like he has plenty of others.

When you have to essentially ignore or try to explain away not one but ALL of the relevant statistics that are all widely accepted as legit ways to judge players against each other and themselves and all those numbers say Westbrook is not good, then I know he’s hooked you.