James Harden is gonna get screwed over again in MVP Voting

Maybe they actually are.

Westbrook does not create as many open looks for his teammates as Harden does. Therefore, their shooting percentages goes down. Even when he does, it might be in the last second where Russ basically throws the bomb at his teammate. That could be technically regarded as an 'open shot pass', but is a bad pass nonetheless. That's what people mean by flow and rhythm.

Being able to stay on court consistently IS a part of being effective as a player. So, you just admitted that Nene is not as effective as you make it out to be.

Given that Beverly has miserably failed to make all-nba defensive team for three straight years, you've lost your argument. Prove that Beverly is a better defender than Oladipo is right now, or else shut up.

says the guy who doesn't understand the basic concept that Houston and OKC's role players' offensive output is intricately tied to how good of a play-maker Harden and Westbrook is. Get that through your thick head before citing figures.

Before that he was 8th among SGs. One bad season defines the whole career? Beverley's 14-15 DRPM was - 0.30. How can a DRPM of -0.30 be considered an elite defender?

 

Counterpoint: Kevin Durant is getting 26 and 8 with nearly 2 blocks and absolutely stupefying shooting numbers for a 70-win (pace) team. He has a better assist-to-turnover ratio than Harden or Westbrook (equal to Lebron).

I'm not saying he's the MVP, the Warriors obviously were winning just as much without him, but I think he's in the conversation just as much as Lebron or Kawhi.

 

Sorry, but no. That's not how math works.

Wrong again. That used to be Harden's favorite move, not Westbrook's. Westbrook doesn't care about his percentages. He wants that last second "hero" shot.

Wrong again. In fact, I've already disproved your logic with my reference to Mutombo in the 2008 season. Before Yao got hurt, Mutombo barely played. According to your flawed definition, that meant he wasn't an effective player.

Again, would you like to have a tipjar wager? Start a public poll asking clutchfans who they'd rather have guarding opposing pg's...Beverley or Oladipo.

Wasn't that the year he missed a bunch of games with a hamstring injury early in the season?

 

Sorry, but no. That's how math and eye-test works.

Wrong again. That IS Wesbrook's favorite move, not Harden's. Harden doesn't care about his percentages. He wants that last second "hero" shot.

Wrong again. There is no use for a player who cannot stay on the court consistently.

Rockets fans picking Rockets player over some other player is a proof? Surely, there could no bias hey? Oladipo IS a better defender than Beverley is. Deal with it.

He played 56 games that season, just as much as in 13-14 when he was selected for all-defensive second team.

Oladipo was also injured just right before the 14-15 season began, when his defensive numbers plummeted in an abnormal fashion.

http://www.orlandopinstripedpost.co...extension-orlando-magic-victor-oladipo-injury

 

It's really not. If Westbrook creates 4 open shots for his teammates and they make 2 of them, that's 50%. If Harden creates 10 open shots for his teammates and they make 5 of them, that's 50%. Having more open looks doesn't necessarily translate into shooting a better %.

Tipjar wager? Post a poll asking if the last second pass used to be Harden's favorite move. I don't know how long you've been watching the Rockets, but in his first few years here, he did that a lot.

At least I had an idea as how to "prove it". What's the alternative? Take your word as gospel?

Lower body muscle injuries are unpredictable and can linger for extended periods of time. A hamstring injury is much different than a sprained mcl like Oladipo had.

 

Wilbon and Magic say Westbrook is their MVP.

Wilbon actually has a vote.

 

No idea where you got some of your numbers from. But they're wrong, very very wrong.

 

Seriously, Westbrook is a habitual bomb thrower.

Again, that is Westbrook's favorite move.

So, 40 year Mutombo > Steve Adams in his prime?

That was not an idea of proving anything, it's was just a delusional thinking on your part. Also, I already pointed out that Oladipo's DRPM is higher than Beverley's this season.

Beverley also suffered from a lower body injury in 13-14, missed more than 20 games, and yet he played the best defense of his career and was selected all-defensive second team that year. Moreover, injuries impact each player differently; you never know how much it bothers that individual unless you yourself go through that experience.

 

Hmm perhaps I made a typo, but I'm not seeing it. What numbers are "very very very wrong"?

The numbers were from http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM and http://www.basketball-reference.com...ussell+Westbrook&y2=2017&player_id2=westbru01

 

Harden's points + points from assists is 56.5, you have 51.7, which is close to 10% off.

 

The argument was never whether or not Mutombo/Nene was better than Adams. It was whether or not a rarely used player could still be an effective player. Quit moving goalposts.

Who cares? How does that prove that Oladipo would be better than Beverley at guarding opposing pg's? Since there's no way to definitively prove it, the most you can be satisfied with is a majority opinion. However, since you know you won't get it, you're backpedaling.

Beverley missed 14 games that year with a broken hand. He would later miss 8 games with a torn meniscus. Neither of those are as unpredictable and lasting as a muscle injury.

 

You're the one keep moving the goalpost by constantly redefining the word 'effective'. What's the definition of being effective? A player can be effective for very short stretches of time, but is he really an effective player overall, if he only plays like 40 games and 5 minutes per game? Nobody in their right mind would call that an effective player. You're just embarrassing yourself at this point.

Projection much? Since when was this about Oladipo is better at guarding opposing PGs? (which very well might be the case, btw). The issue is whether Oladipo is a better defender in general; you're backpedaling.

Injuries impact each player differently. You cannot definitively say how much a particular injury bothers that player, unless you are able to go inside his head.

 

he is an Ok defender if he doesn't have to face fast players, can use his muscle then.

 

Sorry you seem to have misinterpreted my post. The 51.7 is not wrong, it is simply the measurement of points + assists, which is also the same simple addition I applied for Westbrook. The number you are quoting which also is not incorrect, is one that takes into account the type of fgs scored on those assist. As I stated in my original post, it is not my belief that the cumulative total of points + assists by itself is a good barometer for measuring overall offensive performance. Hence reason why I used the simplest total of points + assists and also the reason why i didnt bother to mention the discrepancy between the Rockets teams significant numbers of 3 point attempts vs the Thunders or the wide gulf of 3 point shooting abilities and personal between the two.

In conclusion 51.7 is not incorrect as you claimed, it's just merely the total of points + the simple value of assists. If you want to compare the points + the actual value of assists specifically taking into account 3 FG, and ones, and additionally free throws derived from passes, hockey assist and so forth... you are welcome to do so for both Harden and Westbrook. Incidentally, if you were to do so, your number of 56.5 would be in your opinion "very very very wrong" when in reality, it is not, but rather one set of number pertaining to one set of criteria.

 

James Harden league MVP. Artesia High School.

 

Wilbon sucks he's been out of touch for a while.

But I Honestly think people are caught in the moment from Saturday's game. All these media guys sound like they feel bad for Westbrook which is funny..... he signed up and wanted this.

I listen to NBA radio a lot and most still think harden is the clear MVP but my guy Eddie Johnson who actually loves harden and the rockets, been riding with them all year, a big MDA fan. switched his pick to Russ and even swears up and down Houston would actually be better if you swapped harden out for Russ (we all know that's not true) but people are caught in the moment because of the performance Russ put on and ...... they still lost but he doesn't have the talent.

But some of the early mornings host made a valid point. Players past and current like watching Russ but this is the exact type of roster he has to have in order to produce these type of numbers. He wants this, and moving foward it's going to be hard for the thunder to build a real contender around him because frankly nobody wants to play with him.

Iv bee saying it all along he doesn't make his teammates better. If okc couldn't get it done with Russ plus KD who are you going to bring in that's going to be better than KD and get you over the hump? Nobody.

Okc best bet is to fleece Boston right now for jaylon brown both nets picks and a dead weight contract to make the salary match.

That's three top 5 picks if you include brown (drafted 3) that's great value an you have a lot of young talent to go around Adams/olidipo/Kanter.

Boston does it because there fan base would lose it if they didn't trade for a MVP triple double avg guy who is in his prime and under contract for 2 more years.

 

"I'm not sure if measuring the total ppg + assists is a great way of determining who's had the better offensive season, but Harden's total of 29.1 points + 22.6 points(AST) = 51.7" You state that he creates 22.6 points off his assists, this is not correct no matter what opinion you have on the matter. An assist is never a simple value, it never was. Your opinion doesn't change reality.

 

If the season ended today, he'd be my MVP. On the defensive end, he's guarding the other team's best PG. - Reggie Miller

They both are doing incredible things. As I coach against them, it's amazing we had them all. To do something no one has done in over 60 years, average a triple-double, you have to say that might be the edge. To average a triple-double is phenomenal. - Scott Brooks

 

Saying Westbrook plays defense is an easy way to show you don't watch the games.

And yep. It's clear that 2 rebounds are more valuable than 8 wins according to many. Oh well...