James Harden is gonna get screwed over again in MVP Voting

Jordan Brand just put on a badass commercial for Russell that aired 5 times during the recent Thunder-Warriors game to prop him up for MVP. Adidas needs to step it up for Harden.

 

No way I see Westbrook winning it if Thunder finish 6th or 7th seed. Kobe was averaging 35 ppg in 05-06, and carried the Lakers to the 7th seed but Nash won it over him because of the wins.

I feel like it's going to be the same situation with Harden and Westbrook. It'll all come down to seeding and wins.

 

I think they're devoting all their resources to pumping out shoes at this point. There are more than 7 color ways for the Harden Vol. 1's already

The physical stores are having trouble keeping them in stock..


Also, have been watching some of these High School highlights lately and noticed Zion Williamson's whole team outfitted in the Harden's and he himself I've seen in 3 or 4 different color ways

 

Capela is almost as bad as Kanter on defense, according to DRPM, and Harrell is also not much better. Even going by the eye-test, we regularly get raped in the interior mainly because our young centers have no idea how to protect the rim properly. So you are basically asking me whether I would have two bad defenders paired with one above average defender over an elite defender- bad defender duo. Of course, I would choose the latter.

Unlike on defense, Harden and Westbrook are the very engines of each of their team's offense. You cannot separate the role players' offensive performance from Harden or Westbrook's influence, especially since they both are primary play-makers on their respective teams. That is to say, you can't tell whether Harden is making his teammates better than they are on offense, or we simply have that much better supporting cast offensively.

When it comes to Houston and OKC's supporting cast, you can isolate out the factors and make direct comparisons on defense, because both Harden and Westbrook are not major contributors on that end of the floor - but offensively, it's a different story. Maybe Houston is better on offense mainly because of Harden, despite the relatively small talent gap. That is a very real possibility.

Oladipo and Roberson can both guard 1 and 2s, and arguably are better defenders than Beverley. Beverley is more of a annoying pest than an elite defender.

 

Capela's DRPM is 0.02. Kanter's is -0.84. 0.02 is almost as bad as -0.84? Seriously?

Also, Nene has a DRPM of 3.24. Adams' is 2.15. Yet Adams' is elite while Nene is above average?

Does not compute.

Of course you can, especially since Harden/Westbrook are the primary playmakers on their respective teams. Which role players are better at hitting open shots? Clearly, it's the Rockets' role players.

I haven't seen anyone make this argument. Why don't you start a public poll asking which player you'd rather use to guard Curry? How about a tip-jar wager?

There are plenty of reasons why Harden has a better argument for MVP than Westbrook. A comparable supporting cast isn't one of them.

 

Capela is 60th in DRPM among C. Kanter is 68th. Those are both horrific numbers, because usually the big men have plus DRPM easily. And like I said, Nene has been decent defensively this season, but he's still a bench player who usually goes against the other team's second tier players. Even though DRPM makes various adjustments to take this into account in their calculations, it's not perfect. There is a reason why Nene is only earning 3M/year.

Maybe if Westbrook was as good of a passer as Harden is, his teammates would be better at hitting open shots. Again, this is chicken or the egg situation, and you are just assuming one must come before the other. Also, OKC's role players are much more athletic than ours, which makes for a better PnR supporting cast.

Lol, as if Beverley has a good track record against Curry. You really want me to dig the facts up?

Same here. There are few (but not many) reasons why Westbrook has a shot at the MVP, but having inferior supporting cast is not one of them. Overall, it's pretty decent, especially defensively.

 

You made a big deal about the 48% difference between Roberson and Ariza and ignored the fact that Roberson was 6th and Ariza 11th (he's actually 8th if you exclude injured & low-usage players).

But now that it's Kanter/Capela, you want to ignore the numerical difference and look at the rank?

Double standards FTW!!!

Then why are you treating it as the ultimate defensive statistic?

And no, Nene doesn't usually face the opponents' second tier players. His usage depends on matchups. Look at the opposing centers for the 6 games he's started: Embiid, Valanciunas, Steven Adams, DeAndre Jordan, Bogut, and Pau Gasol.

An open shot is an open shot.

Who do you think would do a better job guarding Curry.....Beverley or Oladipo?

Like I said, feel free to start a public poll. I'd be more than happy to have a tipjar wager.

 

The point is Capela is a much worse defender than you think. Also, I place greater value on going from good to elite (which I think applies to Ariza-Roberson comparison) than going from really bad to just bad (Kanter to Capela).

Nene is a cheap, aging, bench player who only plays 17 minutes per game. Also missed bunch of games this season. He's just not a reliable rotational player anymore, and you are comparing him to one of the best defensive Centers in Adams.

Open shot is not an open shot. Timing. Flow. Rhythm. These things all matter.

Oladipo has more length and is more disciplined on defense. Since when Beverley has become this elite defensive player you are talking about? Most people outside of Houston consider Beverley as a pest - an annoying player (which can be effective at times), not as an actual elite defender.

 

Stephen A. Smith and Windhorst both have Harden as the MVP right now. I find it funny when they come on Mike & Mike and M&M ask them who their MVP is right now and they say Harden..and then it gets silent. M&M both like Westbrook (flashy) so it is funny when the guests continue to not choose their choice. They never follow up with thoughts or questions they just move along to the next topic.

Also, here is Broussard laying it out for Nick Wright. Broussard actually has been beating the Harden drum pretty loudly with facts which is refreshing.

 

If Capela is bad b/c his DRPM is 0.02, does that mean Valanciunas is bat at 0.19? Robin Lopez is bad at 0.01? Horford is bad at 0.5?

Who cares if he's cheap and aging? Wasn't Mutombo cheap and aging during our 22 game win streak? You need to ignore all that fluff and ask yourself if he's still an effective player, and he clearly is. We're intentionally keeping his minutes low to preserve him for the playoffs....not because he's an unreliable rotational player.

So whose to blame for Roberson shooting 42% from the free throw line? Are the referees throwing him the ball too quickly? Is 10 seconds not enough time for him to shoot a free throw?

Sometimes, players are simply bad shooters.

Beverley has had a defensive reputation since he came into the league. He even made an all-defensive team a few years ago. Oladipo has never had a reputation as a good defender.

 

If Westbrook wins it for his triple double thing, I disagree, but I guess I can respect it because at least. He's having a tremendous season.

Lebron, however, is a stupid opinion. You can't willingly sit out games, lose more games, and post worse stats, yet still be the MVP entirely because of what you did in the Finals last season or your reputation. Nick Wright sounds dumb saying stuff like that. Props to Broussard.

 

Nene's defence isn't that great, especially against quicker players

 

Capela is a bad defensive player because he can't protect the rim even for a second, which becomes evident when you actually watch the damn game.

If he's so effective as you claim, then why was his market value so low? Again, you're just assuming that Nene was already this good, when it's probably Harden making Nene look better than he actually is, especially on offense.

Roberson is the only one who is a legit bad shooter. The rest are decent, and could be even better if Westbrook weren't so myopic.

Beverley hasn't been seriously regarded as elite defensively since that 13-14 season. Playing annoying, sometimes outright dirty defense is different from playing a legitimately elite defense. Beverley doesn't have physical tools nor basketball IQ to be that much effective on defense; it's all just product of sheer effort and hustle on his part, which is admirable, but it's scope of effectiveness is clearly limited.

"As we've mentioned before, Oladipo's intrigue as an NBA prospect starts with his abilities as a perimeter defender. An elite athlete with a chiseled frame and solid size and length for an NBA shooting guard, Oladipo combines his outstanding physical tools with a relentless motor, often overwhelming players at the college level as an on-ball defender and causing havoc off the ball.

Oladipo makes his presence felt all over the floor defensively, playing with tremendous intensity and always finding ways to get his hands on the ball for deflections and steals, or flying in from out of his area to block a shot or come up with a rebound, thanks to his seemingly endless energy and outstanding speed, quickness, and leaping ability."

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Victor-Oladipo-6514/

 

nobody is saying his defense is great. but it's definitely not kanter level. You do not need to be "elite" to be considered a solid/good defensive player. But the norm around here doesn't go with that. It's either you have to be considered a lockdown defender or you're not good at defense at all. which makes no sense at all. He can still more than hold his own.

 

That idiot Kellerman has been saying the same garbage on First Take for months. That LeBron is the best player in the world and he's on the defending champion, so he's the MVP. That's not how the award works. It's for the regular season. And Harden and Westbrook(not to mention arguably Kawhi and Thomas and Durant) are having better individual regular seasons than LeBron.

 

M&M is one of the worse sports shows ever.

They have no knowledge and aren't funny or entertaining.

I remember their saying Hakeem wasn't one of the Greats of the Greats.


Broussard made a great point about West vs East

vs the West...
Cavs 13-10
Rockets 23-9

 

LeBron is averaging 26/9/8 with the 4th best record in the NBA. He's also a better defensive player than all of the candidates besides Kawhi (Thomas is a abysmal defensive player, even much worse than the Beard). Golden St. is going to have a worse record this year, and when you join a team and their record gets worse, you are immediately disqualified from garnering a single vote.

He's clearly behind Westbrook and Harden, but LeBron is a f**king monster, let's not act like he's just a guy. His average year would garner insane hype for anybody else. He would be an easy 3rd on my ballot, but I would understand voting Kawhi ahead of him. Nobody else is even worth mentioning besides those 4.

 

I've watched almost every game. Capela isn't bad at defense. Don't we have a huge thread about Capela making Dwight obsolete?

No, I'm not. It's common knowledge. There's a reason Morey tried to trade for Nene years ago.

Only Oladipo, Grant, and Abrines are decent, and Grant only averages 1.5 attempts per game while Abrines only plays 14 mpg.

Morrow is shooting 29.5% this year. That's bad. Roberson? 23.8%. Payne? 31.1%. Sabonis? 33.1%. Lauvergne? 33.3%

Compare that with Ryan Anderson (40.4%), Beverley (39%), Gordon (38.7%), and Ariza (35.5%).

You can't win this argument.

Frankly, it sounds like you don't understand what it means to be a good defender. Beverley's peskiness and hustle are what makes him an elite defender. Elite defenders disrupt their opponent's offensive rhythm and force them to waste time.

You've been citing DRPM ad nauseam. Why has it suddenly become irrelevant when applied to Beverley? He's #2 in the league behind Chris Paul. So Steven Adams is an elite defender when he's #15 in DRPM, but Beverley isn't elite even though he's #2?

Again, double standards ftw!!!

Seriously? Who cares what he did in college? We're in an NBA thread. He's never had a reputation as a good defender in the NBA.

 

I've watched almost every game. Capela IS bad at defense, and the numbers back that up.

And most of those players are better defensively than our role players. What's your point? Did I say OKC's role players are better on offense? I'm saying the offensive talent gap might be not as big as you make it out to be, once both Harden and Westbrook's play-making ability is taken into account. OKC supporting cast is clearly better on defense, and their offensive performance largely relies on how good Westbrook is as a PG. You still didn't answer that question.

You still didn't answer why Nene's market value was so low, if he's really that good w/o Harden propping him up.

Truly elite defenders also have great physical tools like length or high basketball IQ, both of which Beverley lacks.

Beverley DRPM is still lower than Oladipo's, even though he's 2nd among PG, because PGs usually have the least impact on defense. Honestly, do you even watch basketball? Sounds like you know nothing about it.

Seriously? Oladipo has always been known as a strong defender ever since he came into this league.

 

And those numbers depict other players as bad defenders when they actually aren't.

Yeah, your argument boils down to "OKC role players miss open shots b/c their flow and rhythm is disrupted when Westbrook passes them the ball. Houston role players' flow and rhythm isn't disrupted by Harden's passes."

Frankly, that's a ridiculous argument and you should embarrassed that you've been reduced to it.

Age and health concerns. Nothing to do with his effectiveness as a player. That's why we've been monitoring his minutes to keep him fresh.

No-name players don't make an all-nba defensive team unless they're elite defenders. Given that Beverley has already made an all-defensive team, you've already lost this argument.

...says the guy who thinks that OKC role players miss open shots b/c Westbrook's passes throw off their flow and rhythm.

His DRPM last year was 0.79 (11th overall for SGs). His DRPM in 2015 was -1.59. How can a DRPM of -1.59 be considered a strong defender?